Balancing Ambition, Family and Employee Retention With Michelle Yu

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Hello social media followers, LinkedIn, Facebook, and everyone tuning into our show. Welcome to Beyond the Offer podcast. I’m your host, Rosanna Snedeker, joined by my co-host and friend, Bill Gates. Thank you for tuning in as we tackle the latest trends and challenges in the talent acquisition and human resources space.
Today we are sitting down with Michelle Yu. Michelle is the co-founder and CEO of Josie. Josie partners directly with employers to provide coaching content and community events for working parents and caregivers. They’ve partnered with incredible companies such as LinkedIn, Meltwater, Citizens Bank, and Washington University School of Medicine to grow and retain their top talent.
We’re very excited to have you on the podcast. Welcome to Beyond the Offer, Michelle. Welcome, Michelle. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, we’re excited. We’re very excited. We said you’re, I think, our first co-founder and CEO to join our podcast, so welcome. Oh my gosh, what an honor. Yes. well, we kick off with all of our guests.
We’d love just to kind of have you, tell us a little bit about yourself and about your [00:01:00] background. Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you, Bill and Rosanna, for having me on. This is gonna be a fun conversation, I can already tell. Yes, a little bit about me. So I live in Washington, DC, with my family.
My kiddos are six and eight, my partner Mike. I, prior to launching the company, spent 15 years of my career in healthcare, mostly in the consulting space. I started my career at Deloitte, and moved through a few different firms, and most of my clients were hospitals and health systems, and I did the Monday through Thursday travel thing, and really, really enjoyed my work.
I invested so much into building my career. It was a big part of my identity. And I became pregnant for the first time in 2018. And by then I was pretty far along in my career, so I was essentially like a, a principal junior partner at my firm, responsible for a lot of revenue, for clients, et cetera.
It was a high-pressure role. And I really naively thought that I would have my baby, I would go back to work, and things would be just fine. Because, you know, I’m type A, I’m in control. You know, I got [00:02:00] it, I got it figured out. And I see you laughing because I know you both are parents, and so been there, yep.
So you get it. And of course I struggled quite a bit. And it was tough. It was really tough going back to work, and I can get more into that in a moment. But long story short, fast-forward to 2022. I launched, my company, Josie, which is named after my six-year-old, my six-year-old daughter. Yeah, that’s where the name came from.
And, and we really wanna provide supports for people like myself who do care very much about the careers they’ve built, but also want to be the parents they wanna be at home. So that’s sort of the origin story and a little bit about me. And yeah, super, super excited to have this conversation today.
Yeah. Very cool. Likewise. Yeah, we’re super excited. I have a question for you, and yes, we both are parents. But before you became a parent, I guess when you were leading up to becoming a parent, did you ever think, like, there would be a moment when you stepped back into your role where you would need support, or did you think, like, “Okay, I’m gonna go back to work and things are just gonna, like, snap back into [00:03:00] how they were before”?
I really thought that way. Yeah. That I’d snap right back. So, and because of that, with my first especially, like, I didn’t line up, any sort of sort of supports, prior to, going out on leave, or coming back. I really wanted to go right back and operate the exact same way I had before because I had been really successful in operating that way, and I didn’t wanna deviate from that.
That’s all I knew. Yeah. And so I wanted to go back and just be exactly the same, and I was so afraid of, like, asking for any sort of change. And so even going back on the road, which I did do after my first leave, in particular going back, to a client, on site. I think it was the second week I was back.
I think that first on site was in Chicago, actually. And it was at this PE firm, and they had, like, very few women at the firm. And I remember I had to pump in, like, this, like, janitor closet situation thing. Yeah. Anyway, it was and I just, I didn’t even ask if it could be different because I was so, like, sure that I had to operate exactly as I had [00:04:00] before.
It’s such a good question. Yeah. Was that kind of the moment you realized that there was a need for this? Or where was kind of that aha moment when you did come back to the workforce with your first. Yeah. Yes. I wouldn’t say there was, like, one moment, but I think over time, especially those first few months back, what I noticed was this weird, like, building sense of, like, resentment for some reason. And I don’t even know. Like, it was for, like, all things. It was for, like, my family because, like, you know, I had work to do, and they were getting in the way, but was also for work because, I wanted to be with my family. And, I could feel myself also, like, almost even resentful of myself too.
Like, “Why can’t you, figure this out?” You know? Yeah. Yeah. Was there ever, like, a time, like I mean, you know, prior, it’s probably hard to remember back, ’cause your kids are how old again? Six and eight years old. Six and eight, so, like, eight years ago. It was obviously, or
Yeah.
And a half. Was there a time to where, you know, when you looked at somebody or, like, a parent that came back to the workforce and, I don’t know, you [00:05:00] felt one way, but then after having parents and have, you know, now having two longer where you felt differently after you became a parent?
Oh my gosh. Yes, 100%. And I’m very transparent with this, because I want to make sure other people, especially people leaders and managers and colleagues and team members know that they aren’t alone when they sometimes have these thoughts. What’s important is what we do with them and, you know, the actions we take.
So to your point, before I became a mom, there was one other member of my team who, had a baby, and there weren’t many, people on my immediate team in consulting that had young children. Yeah. It was, like, a lot of, like, either you were, you know, recently married or, like, you are single, no children, whatever, or there was, like, a group of people that had older children too.
Yeah. So there just wasn’t many, like, young kids. And so this person in particular, had her baby and, you know, we all were, like, trying to figure out, what does that look [00:06:00] like when she comes back. And I remember when she did come back, she had sent this message, and we were, like, a 24/7 all-on deck team.
Like, you know, especially with client-facing work, you just kind of, like, are always, on. And in hindsight, by the way, we didn’t have to be like that, but that’s how we were, right? ‘Cause I don’t know, we felt really important, you know.
Yeah.
By, by saying that to ourselves. And I remember she said, she’s like, “I’m wanting you all to know,” “that I will be off of email.”
Between 5:00 and 8:00 PM because I need to get my baby from daycare, I need to feed them, I need to get them to bed. But if you need anything, you can text me, you know, and I can be back on email at night, right? And I remember, and I’ve told this story so many times ’cause I still can’t believe it, though. My first thought was, “Well, that must be nice.”
Yeah. Yeah. Like, what? Like I, I truly felt resentful. I was like, “I can’t believe this team member gets to not be on email from 5:00 to 8:00 [00:07:00] PM while the rest of us are still working far past 5:00 PM.” Meanwhile, if you really looked at the situation, like, nobody needed to be on email those hours. Like, And she, you know, like, and she never not did her job, right?
Like, she, she was a high performer and she always-
Yeah
knocked it out of the park, even after that. So anyways, thank you for that question. Yeah, no, it’s always perspective’s everything, you know? Yeah. I think until you’ve actually experienced it, you know, you kind of come in with these preconceived ideas and judgments that are hard to get past until you’ve kind of gone through it your, yourself.
Yeah. Yeah. And now having kids, from 5:00 to 8:00, we all know that time period is just crazy. Like- I would much rather be working, actually. Right. Or if you’re trying to work with kids at that time, it is… Yeah. Do you think the morning’s worse, before work? Or is it, I think, I think the morning is definitely a little more challenging than the,
well, I guess they have their own challenges. Both are… Yeah. Just depends on when you wake up, I suppose. It does. It [00:08:00] does. You know, you gotta have time for breakfast before school, and yeah. But- And getting them, like, out of the house, like shoes on, like get- Yeah. Yeah, no, I know what you mean. I know what you mean.
They’re both challenging. Well, and to your point, too, it’s so interesting to think, ’cause Bill and I, like we both have been at Hirewell for over a decade, and when we started- Yeah. I mean, maybe one or two of our more senior people, our CEO, had kids, but none of us had children. Yeah. And now, I mean, almost probably over half of the employees have kids or are expecting children.
It’s such, like, a different workforce. Yeah. Where your mind just didn’t even think that way. So it is all about perspective and just where you’re at in your life, so. Yeah. Yeah. It’s cool to see, senior company kind of shift and grow in that way. Yeah. That’s awesome. Yep. Absolutely. As you kind of, I guess, ’cause Josie, the, the name of the company’s named after your daughter, correct?
Yes, it is. So as you’ve grown the company, you know, how has your background in public health and consulting shaped the way that you hire and build culture around your team? [00:09:00] Yeah. That’s a great question. And yes, I, do have a public health background. That’s what I have my master’s in and so that combined with my healthcare consulting, I think all of it sort of collided really beautifully into starting a company that specifically supports parents around, you know, big life transitional moments, and addresses a lot of the specifically challenges for moms, although we support non-birthing parents as well.
But yes, when it comes to, thinking about shaping our culture, shaping our team at Josie, you know, I think first and foremost the most important thing to me is really just having a passion to support those that we support. And every single person that’s been part of the Josie family, has absolutely had a deep, deep passion for supporting parents, and had experience themselves when it comes to either themselves or a mother they know or a friend they know, someone they know who’s faced with those challenges.
And so, it’s so interesting, like I was thinking about this the other day from a hiring perspective. I just, started [00:10:00] reading, although I’m pretty far through, I’m not done yet, the book Good to Great. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Jim Collins. Yeah. And one of the messages that stood out to me in that book is this idea that it’s so important to hire, have the right people on board.
If you have the right who, then, like, all the other things just, like, fall into place so much easier, right? Yeah. And I thought about how, like I really truly feel like our team is like that. We’re small, but, it’s like this group of people that just so wonderfully loves what they do and care so deeply about this particular population.
And so that I think has really shaped how we’ve been able to grow a really strong culture at our company as well. Yeah. Absolutely. And that is key. I mean, if you have the right people, you can teach people the skill set, you can figure things out. But if you have the right people, and with your service being such a, you know, passion and have to have, like, the right attitude, I mean, you can do- Yeah
so many things with the right people that think the same way, so. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I guess when you have talked to working parents, and I’m sure you’ve talked to a lot of people about [00:11:00] this, you know, even before you launched the company, what’s something that surprised you most? What’s something you didn’t expect to hear when you were talking to people or when you started talking to some of your customers?
Oh my gosh. I know that I was getting this question, and I was like, “Oh, it’s so hard to pinpoint,” like, one thing. I mean, it’s a few things. Yes, it is. Yeah, so many things have surprised me, about, some of the things our clients will say and the themes we see in our surveys, for example. And just, I do wanna say also, I am not a coach myself.
We have a team of coaches at Josie. Okay. I would not, I wouldn’t be good at it. I know my strengths. I’m good at running the business. I will say I think I’m really good at running the business, but when it comes to, like, the one-on-one support, like, I just get, yeah, it’s not my strength. I’m very good at receiving that support.
But of course, we talk to our coaches all the time. They talk to us about themes they’re seeing, and we have a lot of survey data, right? I think it’s so common but I think maybe a bit surprising to me, especially because a lot of the people we coach and that are supported through [00:12:00] Josie are very, like, high-performing, like, super,
you know, they’re VPs, they’re directors. They were so successful. They’re so successful in their careers, right? But it, when it comes to, like, their ability to navigate, work and parenting and trying to, just, like, get through the day, every one of them has challenges. It’s like we all struggle, you know?
And it’s like we’re talking about some of the smartest people, out there. Like, we coach some really amazing talent. Yeah. That’s so true. right? And it’s like they still struggle with, like, asking for help, delegation, setting boundaries, like, learning how to, you know, not say yes to things right away and, being like, “Oh, let me understand my capacity.
Let me understand what I can, what I can and can’t take on right now.” And like, I mean, just the highest performing people, And, like, they still struggle with some of these things. The other thing too is feeling like they’re not alone. Yeah. Like, when they hear that it’s normal to, experience these things, a lot of them are like, “Really?
I’m not the only one?” Yeah. And I’m like, “No, you’re [00:13:00] not.” You know? And, so many people struggle with the same things. And so I think those are just a couple of the things that have surprised me. And I, what I really love is just, like, through our work, just helping people feel a little more seen, a little less isolated, a little bit more like, “Oh, I’m not crazy.”
Right. Yeah. We all need to hear that. Well, and I think when I became a parent too, it was, like, so eye-opening that, like, two things can exist at the same time. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, it just, and that’s obviously in all aspects of life. But with parenting, you can feel two very different feelings at the same time.
At the same time. Yes. I, that’s a huge one for us at Josie. I love that you said that, the two things can be true. Yeah. I think there’s actually a term for it. It’s like dialectical thinking or something. I forget what it was, but it’s so powerful. You know? Like, you can, you know, love your career and love your children, right?
Right. You know, even that at its most core level, like, is a thing. And so- Yeah.
For so long I feel like we feel like we have to have one or the other, you know? [00:14:00] Yeah. And so, like, you can be a great, ambitious, wonderful team member and colleague and, say, like, “I can’t take this on right now.”
Right. “But here’s what I can do.” You know? It’s like, it’s just that kind of thinking is just so powerful. Yeah. And you always see the things on Instagram that are like, “I love my children so much, but I love when I put them to sleep.” Right. And it’s like, that is so true. It’s so true. I feel like every parent has- It’s so true
has thought that, but some are afraid to say it, but we’ve all probably thought that at some point. I think it every day. My favorite one is, like, I think there’s one that has, like, a It’s like kind of a side by side, but it’s like, everyone when the, you’re expecting a newborn, “Oh, I’m so happy for you.”
And then like right as the baby’s born it’s like, “Oh, are you getting any sleep?” Or, you know, it’s like, “God, I can’t… Oh, that’s the worst time.” And you know, it’s like, what? How did this just- It’s like, oh, we were, you know, so happy for me, and all of a sudden now you’re like,
now you’re like, yeah.
We, we knew it was gonna be terrible, you know?
Right. Right. But- No, it’s so true. [00:15:00] You know, this happened to me, too. Like, when I had my first, afterwards I was like, “Why didn’t anyone tell me how hard this was gonna be?” Yes. And you know, I find myself doing that too because there’s a part of me that doesn’t wanna scare. I don’t wanna, like, make anyone nervous so we default to that.
So when I see you know, friends of mine who are pregnant for the first time or, like, have expecting their first, I’m always like, “Oh my gosh, congratulations. It’s gonna be so wonderful.” Yeah. Yeah. I know. I apologize to so many. I had my daughter at 38. and I apologize to so many of my friends that had babies before.
I’m like, “I’m so sorry. I didn’t know what you were going through. I was just, like, living my life so naive.” Like, oh, they’ve got a baby. Same They’re good. They can meet me. And now I’m like- Same. I had no clue what you went through when we were 30. I was just living my life. I’m so sorry. Yes. I said that to my best friend, who had her first much younger than I had mine.
And I would be like, I remember like, “Oh, can we, can we go to happy hour? Can you-” Yeah. She’s like, “No.” Yeah. It’s so true. But I guess it is good to, you know, let people kind of live in that bubble and, you know, figure it out [00:16:00] in the moment. Yeah. With the support you provide for your customers, I guess-
Yeah
it kicks off obviously when they come back from leave. How long do those services last? Does it differ? I’d just like to learn a little bit more about the business. Yeah. Yes, for sure. For sure. So we are a B2B company, and we largely sell into HR, benefits, total rewards, et cetera. And our most popular programming is for parental leave.
So, we actually started off with the return to work and supporting people once they came back from leave, but we actually now, for the most part, onboard people while they’re expecting. Okay. And this was a learning for us, as we evolved our product, as we evolved our offering. And we realized that it’s much easier to get people to schedule something and be able to get to know their coaches and get into the program before the craziness of coming back to work after baby, where there’s just, like, so many things going on.
But if you’re able to establish that relationship beforehand, and actually there’s so much value in having that conversation [00:17:00] before you go out on leave, you know? Everything from transition planning to how you want your leave to look, what are your communication boundaries, all those things, is really good to have before you go out on leave.
And people are much more likely then to continue in the program if you catch them before they go out. So, yeah. So that was a big learning for us, because we didn’t start off that way. And then yeah, so typically, what we do is there’s a, a different programs that we have that people can elect themselves into, consisting of different topics, different number of sessions, and, starting with parental leave and the return to work, and we actually offer, programs even beyond that, too.
So if you’re navigating, you know, school-aged children or transition to school, or you are navigating a new role at work, we have programming around that as well. Absolutely. Very nice. How is it like kind of getting into more of like when you started the organization, I mean, we talked a little bit about, you know, how you, you know, came up with the idea and whatnot, but what were some of the challenges when you had first, you know, started?
I think everyone [00:18:00] recognizes there’s, I mean, you know, it’s easy for a male to say probably because we don’t have to deal with nearly as much stuff as, you guys do on your end. But at what point in time, like when you first started the business, and when did you kinda realize there was a need, and what challenges when you were kinda getting the business running, did you kind of encounter as, as you started to get up and running?
And, two-part question. Yeah. How has it evolved and changed as, at the same time? Yeah. How much time do you have? Well, we got about 30 minutes left I’m kidding. I’m kidding. I’m totally joking. Yeah. No, but in all seriousness, oh my gosh, so many challenges, especially because, you know, I’ve never been an entrepreneur.
Yeah. Prior to this, 15 years in big, like, corporate. Like, that’s what I know. That’s all I’ve done. Never started a business before, never worked in, like, such a small team. Always been part of huge organizations. And so it was all new to me. But yeah, there are so many different challenges. I think what might be very relevant for [00:19:00] your audience too particularly is us really trying to figure out what resonates with employers, what resonates with the ultimate buyer, with our, with HR leaders, with people leaders, when it comes to this type of support.
What’s the right messaging? How’s it gonna fit in with what they already offer? How is it going to be implemented? I think very naively, you know, when I started this business and, I’m not criticizing myself. I think I see this a lot when people start businesses. You’re so excited.
You’re so passionate about it. You’re like, “This is gonna work. It’s gonna be great,” right? “Everyone’s gonna want it.” Yeah. And then you go to market, and then you get your first rejections, and you’re like, “Oh.” Yeah. What are some of the rejections you’re typically getting?
So, a lot of the early days, it had a lot to do with, you know, differentiating ourselves from, like, mental health platforms, that’s a big one, or existing benefits. Another one we get often is, you know, are you a point solution, and it’s very targeted and, like, we’re looking for something that’s more comprehensive.
I [00:20:00] think, particularly for larger companies, I see that a lot. They want one solution that kind of covers a gamut of different, needs, which is completely understandable. Bandwidth is such a limited resource for so many. And so, that was another challenge that we came up against. I think it took us a while to also, like, figure out our economic model.
Like, what’s a way to contract with employers that just makes sense, is easy, like, easy to track, gets the most utilization? I think that’s, that’s another one. And then even once you’re in a company, how do you market your services so that people actually know you exist? And know how to sign up for your program.
So a lot of these things, thank goodness for some early partners that have been so awesome that are still with us today, we’ve been able to figure out how to really seamlessly operate within organizations, and make sure people are utilizing the services, getting benefit from the services, and then collecting data so that we can actually say, “Here’s the value we’re delivering.”
And that was absolutely another challenge when you’re still s- when you’re starting off. [00:21:00] Often we were asked, like, “Well, what data do you have? You say that this type of work can support retention and engagement. Where are your retention and engagement metrics?” Right, right. Well, when you’re new You don’t have those yet. You don’t have those, yeah.
Right. So that was another challenge as well, and I think over time we’ve also been able to learn, now we have the data, which is great, but also, like, which employers and which type of organizations make the most sense for a, a solution like ours. And so, you know, I think that has been… took some time to get to.
And we still get rejections all the time, but we’ve been much better about building a pipeline with much better leads, and qualified leads, to be able to sell our services. Obviously, I would think most of your end users are, which a lot of our audience members are HR folks, on that front.
But is this something you typically offer that that would actually come in the, you know, employer pack, or is it more of like an a la carte situation that is offered, you know, to, to these actual, clients of yours and, and-
Yeah.
Their employees on the [00:22:00] end, end user side? Great question. We typically contract annually, with a set amount of support that the employer pays for and agrees to pay for, so less of the a la carte situation.
And it’s more like, “Here’s a scope of work, and we’re committed to it for a year.” And then it’s our job to make sure that all those services get utilized, that as many people are signing up for our programs as possible. There are a few situations where, like, a company may have, say, like, a professional development stipend,
which I know is very attractive and so great. I know that I used mine at my old corporate firms. You get a couple thousand dollars a year to, you know, you could take a class. You could sign up for a coaching program, et cetera. Unfortunately, most people don’t use it because they forget about it or they don’t know about it.
But we have partnered with a few organizations where people will sign up for Josie on their own and use those stipends to get reimbursed. And so that’s another way, but we prefer to have more of that contractual relationship. Makes sense. [00:23:00] Yeah, so it’s similar to, like, you know, an executive coaching model or outplacement model as well, which, you know, is another add-on, as you said, to, increase retention, engagement.
Another employer-
Yeah.
offering, which is, which is cool. Exactly. Yeah, I love that. This is more kind of a broad question just for folks that are in kind of a CEO seat or someone in a startup. I guess what’s a moment that you’ve been in as a CEO where you’ve had to kind of change your mind or something you weren’t sure about where it was really a teaching moment for you about leading a team or just, you know, leading an organization from the ground up?
Yeah. I feel like there’s so many moments like that. I think, gosh, it’s hard to pick one because I feel like when you’re in a startup kind of environment, it’s just like constant pivoting,Right
and needing to be flexible. And I think maybe if that could be, maybe that in and of itself is the answer is, like, [00:24:00] learning as, especially when you’re in a corporate environment where everything was pretty, like, consistent.
Like, I had client projects, this is how you execute it. We had a framework. We had an approach. You onboard the… You know, it’s like very, very set. Built out. Right. Whereas in this environment, like, I had to learn very quickly, how to, not get too invested in one process or one product or one thing.
Because, like, you are very quickly trying to collect information on whether it’s working or not, and then you’re like, you have to be okay with flipping that and moving on if it’s not working. And so I think that has been a big lesson as a CEO, as someone who’s, running my own business that I’ve had to learn.
And it’s hard when you come from consulting too, ’cause, like, we’re so, like, step one, two, three, four, get it done, that’s deliverable, due this date, you know? Like-
Yeah
such, like, a different mindset when you’re running a business, and you really have to kind of, like, unlearn some of that. Right. Does that make sense?
That’s been hard. Yeah. [00:25:00] Yeah. But fun too, yeah. I bet. Yeah, you went kind of from two extremes. I kind of did. Yeah. But I mean, that’s really cool. And, I mean, kudos to you for being able to make that transition. Not everyone can do that. Thank you. Did you ever think you’d be a business owner or that you’d start your own company?
I mean, 10, 15, 20 years ago-
No
was this on your radar? No. Never. Never. Yeah. I never thought that I would do this. And truly, like, if it wasn’t for, the fact that I really thought this was needed, you know? Yeah. I probably would still be in consulting because I did really love my job. I did.
I was good at it, you know, I was on a partner track. You know, it just, it was, like, set for me. And it was, I had a great team. You know, like, it’s stable, very stable. And so I never thought, i’m not a risk-taker either, so it doesn’t really make sense that I did this at all.
But I was just so excited by the opportunity to be able to do something that would help others in this way and,
Yeah.
And soI went [00:26:00] for it. but yeah, I’m pretty sur- I still surprise myself that I actually did it because I’m like, “It’s not me. It’s not my personality.” Not being a risk-taker? No.
No, not at all. Like, this is just not me at all. So what did your, family and personal network say when you told them? Oh my gosh. No, not happy. Okay. My- okay, and we can get into this for another hour-long conversation. But oh my gosh, My mom in particular, who I love so dearly, was the least happy.
And she, you know, she, It’s so funny because she was an entrepreneur herself. She’s an optometrist, so she started her own optometry business. Yes. Oh, wow, okay. Very successful. And I watched her doing this growing up. She worked a lot. And she was very good, and I admired that about her.
But she was not happy with my decision, and I remember how much it hurt. it was so painful because, like, I feel like, gosh, I’m taking this podcast to a totally different direction now. Okay. Yeah. We’re turning this into a therapy… No, i’m kidding. Totally. But I like, I literally just listened to this podcast called
okay, so, Mel [00:27:00] Robbins. Yeah. love her and her podcast. She interviewed this therapist named Kelly McDaniel who wrote this book called Mother Hunger, who I happened to just meet a few weeks ago. Very random story. Anyways, but I listened to her, this podcast, and she was talking about this, like, this mother hunger.
How we’re always seeking the love of a mother. Like, like, approval in, everything we do. Like, that is at the core of our beings. Anyways, and I thought a lot about that and how my start of my journey related to that and how hard it was to, like, not have the support of my own mother when starting the business.
Of all the people in the world-
Right
it didn’t matter. It didn’t matter. She was, like, really the one opinion that I wanted so badly to be okay with it, you know? And she wasn’t. Yeah. And that was so hard. But, you know, we’ve sort of repaired since then. It was rough. And you know, to this day, I think she still probably has her opinions, but she keeps them to herself more.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you’re starting it’s ironic you’re starting a company that [00:28:00] kinda supports mothers and
Yeah …
full circle there. I know, right? Isn’t that It’s the irony. There’s a lot of ironies. Yeah. I mean, also, like, Josie, my daughter.
Yeah.
The name of the company, she’s named after my mom. So there’s a nod to
Oh, that’s full circle
my mother in the name, and it was so very intentional that I did that, ’cause I’m like, “My mom was an entrepreneur. I respect and love her so much.” Yeah. But also different generations also about, you know, you had a very stable job. You were on track to be partner. Like, why would you, why would you give that up, you know?
Yes. And as, you know, someone who, you know, came here from Taiwan in the 1970s, who sacrificed so much for me. Yeah. Right? I have forgiven her and I know she’s doing the best she can as the mom that she is
Yeah.
And that is great. And it doesn’t mean that, like, I can’t be hurt by it.
It’s the two truths thing again. Totally. But yeah. It relates to everything, the two truths. I love, it could apply to everything. Okay. I took this podcast in a direction you may not have taken it before. No, we’re good. Yeah. That’s okay. We like it. We’re real here. Michelle, one other question I kind of just thought of here on the spot [00:29:00] was, like, and you obviously deal with, all different types of organizations, but
Yeah
just given the fact, like, that you have and you’ve seen how a lot of different approaches to parental leave, if you could change one thing about how companies approach parental leave or return to work,
Yeah.
What do you think that would be? Aside from, using you of course. Aside from buying our services.
Yeah, that’s number one. Yeah. Yeah, that’s number one. But no, in all seriousness- Here’s the number, 555-4444 … yes, myjosie.com. Yes. hello@myjosie.com. There you go. Okay, no, in all seriousness, train your managers. Okay, so this, I’ve like, I’ve thought about this question a lot because, it’s an important one.
I think the single most important thing you can do is, to help employees through a big transition like this, or any life event, not even just parental leave Yeah
is giving people, leaders, and managers the tools to support them appropriately. I think and, but this is so much easier said than done, and I know this because we do do some of this at [00:30:00] Josie as well.
So we do offer manager coaching, we offer manager trainings. It’s so hard to get people to show up to those. It’s so hard to like, mandate something like that. And also who has time? It takes a lot of time. It takes time out of your day. But the thing is, I think for the most part, like we could do all the coaching we want for the parent, you know, and we could support them and help them advocate for themselves, et cetera.
If they don’t have a people leader that’s supportive, they’re probably, you know, gonna disengage, you know? And so I think just even being able to, and this goes back to your question earlier, Bill, about, like, you know, the thoughts that I had when my colleague went out, and I, the judgments that I had of, you know, before I had children.
And not everyone’s going to experience that. Not everyone’s gonna have, children, and that’s okay. And we all probably will take some form of caregiving responsibility in our lives, that there is research to show that. But how can you develop that empathy and support, among those who are leading, and making sure that [00:31:00] those relationships are strong?
Because I think that is truly the best way you’re going to be able to keep your talent. Yeah. That’s a good answer. I think there’s always a battle or a struggle that I’ve seen, whether it’s us managing folks internally or, you know, working with clients as they’re hiring HR people is,
you know, I think everyone approaches and views, work/life balance, and there’s, like, a barrier between, you know, your personal life and work life. But, you know, naturally, they’re just gonna blend together
Yeah
especially when you become, obviously a parent. And how do you strike the balance between being understanding and empathetic, but also not, like, having them, you know, the personal life totally intersect with,
your work life and performance and that type of thing, which there’s no right, you know, complete answer. Totally. But, Yeah. Yeah. And I feel for managers, too, because I’ve been in that position. I am in that position. Like, you need your teams to produce their outcomes. You need to meet your goals. And at the same time, you wanna show up [00:32:00] with empathy and let them have lives outside of work, right?
And so I do think there are ways to do that, and, it’s such a great point, Bill. And, you know, we often, in our manager trainings, we talk a lot about just being, like, as vigorously focused on outcomes as possible and less on process. And, like, are you meeting your goals? Is this person meeting the, you know, the goals you set out for them, and what you agreed on, and their objectives at work, their responsibilities?
Is that being met, yes or no? Start there, and focus less on, like, did they, you know, were they on Slack at this time Right
of day, you know? Right. And so it’s hard. But, again, easier said than done, you know? Especially when you’re in the thick of it, and you’re, like, up against deadlines, and, everything’s moving so fast.
So, so I get it. Yeah. How do you, I guess, navigate that balance personally? ‘Cause I mean, you have a company that’s helping parents thrive at both work and home. You have two kids at home. Yes. You’re running a business. Oh, [00:33:00] my gosh. You’re running a household, you have a family. You know, how do you try to balance that as best as you can, and I guess where do you fall short with your own advice sometimes?
We’d love to hear about that. All the time. Yeah. All the time. I joke about that all the time about how, like, I literally fall short. But we coach our clients on what we, like, talk about in our trainings all the time. Yeah. The other day, me and one of our coaches, we were, on Good Day DC. We did a short TV segment on Good Day DC about how families can kind of reset for the fall.
Like, don’t think of it as just a school transition, but you can kind of like reset operationally as a family. Like, where are you gonna, you know, talk to your partner if you have a partner about how are you gonna split responsibilities, like what boundaries you’re gonna set. And I shared about how we had decided we’re gonna do one activity per kid for this semester, per semester, just to keep our sanity and, like, just so the household stays happy.
‘Cause, like, that’s, that’s what works for us, you know? And I literally signed them both up for soccer, so that’s our one activity, right? [00:34:00] Yep. And the next week Girl Scouts comes up at our school, and I’m like, “Ooh, I wanna do Girl Scouts for Josie too.” And by the way, I didn’t ask her if she wanted to do Girl Scouts.
You wanted to do. I wanted to sign her up for Girl Scouts. So without asking her, I decide to sign up, but I find out that there’s a lottery because there’s not enough spots. So we didn’t get in. And so I shared on TV, I was like, “I did this,” and it was the universe telling me to listen to my own advice, set the boundaries, ’cause I determined myself what was feasible.
There we go. And I was about to break it. The universe said no for you. And the universe said no. No, no Girl Scouts this semester. You don’t need Girl Scouts. Right? They’ll be there next semester. In fact, my daughter was not even interested in Girl Scouts. Yeah. You wanted to be in-
I didn’t, I didn’t ask her.
I’m like living out my own, like, you know, like, ooh, I want this. So anyways, so yes, I [00:35:00] fall short all the time. But to your question about how I try to keep balance besides when the universe just steps in, it’s really hard. I don’t always get it right. But I will say, one of the benefits of running a company, that supports working parents is, like, I work with a team of executive coaches and therapists who are all focused on supporting working parents, and I meet with them regularly.
And literally, I think I get free support
Love that
from my team, and, like, so much encouragement. And so that is definitely one way, is just having a community. Truly, like, I feel like I have a community through work, at our school that is supportive. And just making sure that, like, you know, I truly have, with my partner, who works full-time as well, have gotten really clear about a division of responsibilities, in our household.
And so that has been really helpful, too. Yeah. Well, and having those coach and therapists, It’s always top of mind, ’cause you’re always kind of talking about it even in, like, probably,
I’m like getting all this advice. Like, without even realizing that I was like, [00:36:00] “Oh, that’s actually a really good idea.”
Yeah. It’s so important though. I mean, becoming a parent, you realize how big, like, of a network, and friends obviously, but just, like, that village term. You know, having people to- yes
kind of just talk through things and bounce ideas off of, it can go a long way. It’s so, so, so important, to have community.
That’s one way I’m able to find balance, and really remember that I’m more than just, like, someone outside of being a mom or even a working parent. We actually have in our school community, me and two other moms, we started, a mom’s night out chat group that started with the three of us.
It has blown up to over 70 members. And like about once a month, once every couple months, we’ll like go out dancing or we’ll go to an event together. It is so much fun, and we have a chat going. We all like make sure we’re not going crazy when we think something’s going on. Yeah. And like everyone’s like, “Yeah, that’s very normal.”
It is such an awesome community. And so that is absolutely one way that I’ve been able to [00:37:00] find some like sanity in my life. Yeah. My wife does that every week, not every month, so. Wait, that is amazing. That’s amazing. She deserves it. She’s got three girls at home. Whether it’s for dinner or something, I’m like, “Fine.
Fine by me.” More golf, more golf that I can cash in on the weekends. Good for her. Good for her. Well, we were all someone before we were parents, before we were workers. Absolutely, yeah. Like, you know? Yeah, yeah. We have identities. We have identities. Yeah. And like I know it’s a long ways away, but like, you know, one day they will be gone.
I know it. Exactly, yeah. But anyway. So true. Yeah. Not too soon, but it will happen, so. Yeah. Well, we would like to, you know, now wrap up. We always wrap up with our guests with like kind of more two unfiltered related questions even though I feel like we’ve thrown in plenty of those in this
conversation. But, what would a complete child-free day look like for you? Oh. Oh man, I haven’t been asked that in a while. Child-free day. [00:38:00] Okay. I love my TV, okay? So Shows. Yeah, all right. Yes, I would binge-watch. I love the answer. Yeah. I would totally like catch up, okay, soWidow’s Bay apparently got all these Emmys.
Wow. I’d never heard of it, and now I’m like, “Oh, I would just, i’d probably binge that.” That is a great show. Ro, I don’t know if you’ve seen. Have you seen it? I haven’t. Either of you guys seen it? No. It’s so uniquely- But it won all these Emmys. It’s so uniquely done and, in a way to where it’s like a horror, but it’s a comedy, which is,
yeah, it’s kinda hard to explain, but, well, you know. Hey, one day talk to your partner, say, “Hey, listen, I’m just gonna pound through these eight episodes on a Sunday.” Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, bye. You’re on, you’re on parent duty. Go for it. Yep. Yep. Okay, that’s my plan. Thank you for, thank you for the tip.
Absolutely. And then the other one, if you could interview any celebrity or public figure, who would it be? [00:39:00] Ooh, oh, this is hard ’cause there’s so many. Sorry, only one, Michelle. I can only, I can only pick one? It’s only one. That’s why it’s a great hypothetical. But maybe after this interview you could have your choice.
Ooh, okay. Okay, there’s too many, but, maybe because it’s top of mind, ’cause I literally, like, listen to her every day, is Mel Robbins. Oh, all right. And just, like, I would love to, I feel like she’s a friend, and so I, like, kind of want to just, like, chat with her like. Yeah, you feel like you already know her. Feel like I already know her
so, like, really get to know her. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that would be a lot of fun, I think. And she’s fun. She seems really fun, so I think I’d have a lot of fun talking to her. I love that. Oh, no, that’s great. I think she’s from Kansas City too, if I’m not mistaken. She is. Yeah. And she’s obviously gonna listen to this episode, so. Yeah. Yeah
let’s tag her. So excited. Tag her. Yeah, tag. Mel, the DMs are open. I love it. I love it. Well, that’s all the time we have for today. Thanks for tuning in for this week’s episode. Today we met with Michelle [00:40:00] Yu, the co-founder and CEO of Josie. We talked about her journey from management consulting to starting her own business, the ups and downs of parenting while working, and everything in between.
We’ll be back next month with a new special guest. Quick reminder again on how you can support our Beyond the Offer podcast. You can find all our content on Hirewell’s social media platform, which you can find through hirewell.com. Take care, everyone, and thanks for tuning in. Thanks, Michelle. Thank you.
Yeah, thanks, Michelle. Thank you.