Between Two Hires with Special Guest Justin Bullock

[00:00:00] Justin Bullock, thanks for joining Between Two Hires, the subtle art of not fucking up your team, which I know you know a thing or two about from your experience at New Relic, great tenure with Envoy, and now on to Recall, which I’d love to just get a sense for what you’re working on at the moment with Recall.

[00:00:20] And, you know, anything priority wise that you might be hiring for too. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for the opportunity. It’s great to be here, Tom.

[00:00:29] So I work for Recall. It’s been about four months almost and into my tenure here. Recall is the universal API for conversation data. We are on a mission to help developers work with conversation data.

[00:00:41] Today, we focus on helping them access and work with the data on very common meeting platforms like Zoom, Microsoft Teams, Google Meets, Slack huddles, even older solutions like Webex and GoToMeeting, which many of your audience might not remember, but I certainly do. And yeah, growing really [00:01:00] fast. There were two AEs when I started back at the end of October.

[00:01:03] We’ve grown that team to six now. And we’re going to be continuing to grow as we move throughout the year. We’ll be building our first enterprise sales team. We will be hiring for our mid market, which is a great spot, a great segment for our business. And we’ll continue hiring on our velocity team, which works with our smaller startups that are really, really excited about our solution. And just from knowing folks that have worked alongside you under you in the past, that had gone on to sort of have flourishing careers, strongly recommend reaching out to Justin

[00:01:37] for either of those positions, if you’re in the market or if you’re not. Thank you. Justin, so to kick off, I’m curious just to understand a bit more about your experience in hiring- how many, what are the numbers? Yeah. So I got my first chance to lead a team back at New Relic in January of 2015. So just about one decade ago, and [00:02:00] hiring is a huge part of leadership and fast growing SAS businesses. but when I, when you asked that question, the first thing that comes to mind is I did spend about seven years, just shy of seven years at my previous company, Envoy, where I hired about a hundred account executives, maybe 10 to 12 managers.

[00:02:18] that’s a combination of internal promotions from our SDR PDR team as well as external candidates. So that was a high volume over those six and a half years. And then as I just mentioned, we’ve grown the team here at Recall from two to six in short order. We appreciate your help with that, Tom, and, we’ll be continuing to grow the team to as many as, let’s say, 20 this year.

[00:02:39] so definitely in super high growth at the moment, and we’ll be building entirely new teams. As I mentioned, an enterprise team. I don’t think I mentioned account management, but that’s a function that we will also be standing up this year. and we’ll be experimenting and launching an outbound motion because believe it or not, Recall has grown.

[00:02:56]

[00:02:56] And so clearly well versed in hiring. what [00:03:00] I’d love to know is, Along the way, maybe some of your best or worst hiring surprises. Yeah, two stories come to mind and I’m definitely a storyteller. So the first one, and I’m going to name names. Yeah, it’s like, one of my favorite stories is, during my time at Envoy, we, we hired pretty early into my tenure there, a gentleman named Ed Marco. Ed, kind of started in a mid market role.

[00:03:28] Earned his way into the enterprise sales team and was the top one or two sellers across many, many years at Envoy. so a great success story at is a phenomenal human being. And, he, we actually met at a hiring event. So one of the recruiters had hosted like a happy hour type of thing, you know, invite four companies, try to get a bunch of candidates in a room.

[00:03:49] And I’ll never forget because, Ed had told me that he was this close to not, not going to that event, but I’m glad he did. We met at that event. He sent a follow up, which is legend at this [00:04:00] point. the title of his follow up email was, if I’m getting this right, Ed’s Super Secret Cookie Recipe. which obviously caught our eye, the

[00:04:09] recruiting team laughed, you open the email and it’s like, sorry, I don’t actually have a cookie recipe, I just wanted to thank you guys for meeting, and I’m interested in interviewing, fast forward and it was An amazingly successful account executive at Envoy.

[00:04:23] So it’s just a story that I think about. sometimes those opportunities where we say, no, we need to be more open to yes, the creativity with like the cookie recipe follow up is always good as a way to stand out. And I think standing out is one of the hardest things as a employer who’s hiring and also as a candidate.

[00:04:40] So that’s a good story. The sort of other end of that, I’ll never forget this one, but when I was at Periscope Data, which is now Sisense for, for data teams, I joined Periscope in 2016 at the end of 2016. And, we were a 53 person startup in a [00:05:00] warehouse in the dog patch region of San Francisco.

[00:05:03] and we were really close to what I believe is the HQ, of Phil’s Coffee. So, kind of a staple here in the Bay Area. And, we had a canned email message that went out to all candidates that basically said, If you arrive early for your interview, please feel free to go to Phil’s Coffee. It’s a stone’s throw away from our building, and then come on over when you’re ready.

[00:05:28] That was pretty clear to people, to the hundred or so candidates that we interviewed. But one candidate in particular was late. This was a BDR candidate. And our BDR manager called the candidate about six minutes into the scheduled interview and said, you know, where are you? And the candidate said, well, I’m at, I’m at Phil’s waiting for you.

[00:05:49] So he, the candidate misread the email. but not only that, I was under the impression that. We were going to buy him coffee at Phil’s as part of the interview process. [00:06:00] So we cleared that up and said, no, no, no. Just come on, come on over and we’ll, we’ll do the interview. And so at the time we had one conference room, it was upstairs in this warehouse.

[00:06:09] So hiring manager took the candidate upstairs, they sat down. Now they’re 17 minutes into the interview and the candidate had the audacity to say, well, aren’t you going to bring me coffee? And the hiring manager just like a deer in headlights said, excuse me. And he said that the message said that I would be getting coffee, which it definitely did not.

[00:06:31] And so the hiring manager said, you know what? Sure. I’ll go get you coffee. Went downstairs for a cup of coffee, brought it upstairs and said, here’s your coffee. And our interview is over. So, the interview never happened. but that story lives on definitely a memorable one. Yeah. Quite the polar opposites.

[00:06:47] Those two. also on the timing front with that was Ed could could easily have not happened. So it’s a great kind of. Yeah. Exactly right. okay. So, moving on to some of the secret sauce, if [00:07:00] we could, do you have a secret recruiting weapon that you use to, to source top talent? What’s your secret weapon there?

[00:07:10] Yeah. So, you know, this might come off as a bit of a boring answer, but I really feel passionate about it. Passionately about it. My secret sauce is be a good leader. You know, it’s, it’s as simple as that. it’s not a simple task to do, but you know, I do strive to be a strong leader that connects with people, that makes people feel the vision of the company, makes people feel supported.

[00:07:36] certainly I love to offer guidance. This gray hair comes with a bit of experience and hopefully a little bit of wisdom. And, what I found is that here in the Silicon Valley, it’s smaller than we realize, your reputation matters and the way you treat people matters. And so the best secret weapon in recruiting is to try every day to be a good leader so that when people are talking.[00:08:00]

[00:08:00] You know, friends, people who not just the linkedin messages or the outbound recruiting efforts, it’s more important to have a network of people that would say to their friends who are looking for work. Hey, you should go work for this company. You should go work for this leader. So. You know, perhaps not groundbreaking, but I think it’s the most important secret weapon we have is our reputations and that can really help you access a high level of talent that you might not otherwise have access to.

[00:08:28] Yeah, I think it’s such a great point and one that speaks volumes to you. Either people you’ve worked with in the past talking positively about their experience with the people that are working with you currently talking positively about you. No better way. of getting good insights into, you know, other great people, great candidates in the market, then through the work that you’re doing.

[00:08:47] So I love that one. super simple, but not super simple in the sense that being a great leader is not the easiest thing in the world. I think you’ve done it very well. Let’s talk about along the way interviews. I’m sure you’ve had lots of [00:09:00] them looking for the weirdest interview moment you’ve experienced.

[00:09:02] And the coffee one was certainly a good one. I’m wondering if you can top that. Yeah. No, I’m not sure that I can. I think I may have completed those two questions. Let’s see. I’m wondering if there’s, I guess I’ll, I’ll share one other one. and we’ve all had something like this happen, but I remember during COVID and during the lockdown specifically, we were, we were still hiring at some point as we started coming out of that.

[00:09:25] And I was working from home. My desk was, you know, six feet away from my bed. Like that got really old for me. I had to start taking, walking one on ones just to get out of the house. but I remember. Calling my wife into the room and saying, Hey, look at this candidate. do you recognize her? And we both just, kind of had a laugh and a trip down memory lane because it happened, it just so happened that the candidate was someone who had dated my first cousin when we were kids, basically, you know, 17, 18, 19 years old.

[00:09:55] And it’s just, as I mentioned, the, the world can seem really small at times. And [00:10:00] so that, that was a funny moment because it was like, you hadn’t seen or thought of someone in, you know, Two decades, basically. not quite that long. And, that’s always fun when you get a blast from the past. So, Yeah, I think the coffee story was probably my weirdest, so I may have, over, you know, got that one out of the bag too early, but, it’s also fun when you get applause from the crowd.

[00:10:21] Yeah, and I hope their relationship ended well. Did you end up hiring her? I don’t remember how the relationship ended, but we did end up hiring her. she was, a strong, strong sales manager, and yeah, it’s always fun. Yeah, full circle. Interview questions, tactics. I know you’re sort of, well versed in interviewing, run a tight sort of book there.

[00:10:43] Do you have a secret or unconventional interview tactic that you would be able to share? Yeah, I’d be glad to. and I have a bonus one for you, which I learned here at Recall from our co founder, Amanda. I know you’ve met. so we’ll get to that one last, but, as far as the interview itself. I’ve got two.

[00:10:59] One of them, I [00:11:00] don’t know that how unconventional it is, but it is something I always ask. And it’s just a basic question, which is what are you most proud of? and I, it just like in sales, when you deliver the price, put yourself on mute. It’s like, what are you most proud of? And I, I mute essentially myself.

[00:11:16] And, Eight or nine times out of 10, the candidate will ask a clarifying question, which is personal or professional. and frankly, for me, it’s I just want them to share the first thing that comes to mind. you really get a sense of who someone is based on that question. sometimes you get, frankly, like a tear jerking story about, you know, Growing up with parents who are immigrants and seeing how hard they worked and like how that inspired them to like reach for the stars in their own professional life.

[00:11:46] Stories like that, that, you know, I really value that still get me when I think about it. yeah, and so I think that’s a really good one that I always ask in the first screen, to be honest. Another, another one I love to ask is, [00:12:00] it’s like a visualization exercise. I’ll say something like. You know, imagine yourself at a backyard barbecue in the summer, and you’re talking to like an aunt or an uncle who’s not particularly technical, how would you describe, and let’s say you had the job at Recall, how would you describe what we do to that family member?

[00:12:19] And it’s just, again, I’m sure people have asked that type of question. So it may not be like something no one’s ever heard of, but one of the keys to success in sales is taking complex concepts and breaking them down into really simple, adjustable to understand concepts and. Also, understanding who your buyer is, right, knowing your audience, reading the room, and so I always love doing that.

[00:12:42] It not only show showcases hopefully that ability, that skill, but also showcases whether or not the candidates done at least a little bit of research. It should be table stakes, right? For the interview. So those are, those are two questions I love to ask. The bonus question, and this is one I had never heard of.

[00:12:59] So when I started at [00:13:00] Recall, my very first day, we were in like a final interview with an AE candidate who’s now on board. And I got to participate in those reference calls within my first week of being here. And our co founder, Amanda, had put together a little bit of a script for the reference calls.

[00:13:17] And there’s one question that really stood out. And I remember when I was interviewing here, my references mentioned that she asked this question because I was aware of it, but it’s a really good one. And it’s, so if you’re talking to a reference of someone that you’re looking to hire, the question is, let’s, it’s like the backyard barbecue question.

[00:13:34] Let’s just, let’s assume you and I bump into each other at a party six months from now, and I tell you that it didn’t work out with this candidate, what would be your first inclination as to why? Gotten a lot of feedback from references like, wow, I’ve never been asked that before. I think you get some really interesting answers.

[00:13:54] half the time you get like that really loyal reference. That’s like, well, if they didn’t succeed, it would be your fault [00:14:00] because this person’s amazing. And that’s cool. but I think I’m always more interested in the other answers because you usually get kind of like an area that that candidate might need to be coached on, which is super important that the hiring manager.

[00:14:13] to know what those areas are, right? and so I love that question. I had actually never heard that in my career up until this point, and I’ll credit our co-founder Amanda. It’s a great question. Yeah. Lastly, Justin. So, for budding sales leaders, what’s the sort of most important wisdom on hiring you wish you’d known earlier?

[00:14:34] In fact, it’s fair, I think, across the board, not just for budding up and coming sales leaders, but Curious what the most important piece of wisdom on hiring you wish you’d known earlier is. Yeah, again, I’ve got, I’ve got two. if that’s alright. One is you need to be really honest with yourself about what your strengths and weaknesses are as it relates to hiring.

[00:14:59] I [00:15:00] have a quality in myself that I think is both a strength and a weakness. And that is, I, this is a cliche, but I really do see the best in people. And so, the, the, the good qualities in a candidate emerge for me very naturally. And I can be overly focused on those at times. And, and, Be a bit blind to blind spots or areas of development for the candidate or red flags, for example And so it took me a little while in the last decade to to realize that that was something I deal with And so the most important piece of advice and wisdom is to surround yourself in the hiring process with Colleagues on your team that cover some of those gaps.

[00:15:40] So for me, it’s really simple. I I need some some leader within the organization who has is kind of the opposite of that, they naturally see the red flags, and they might be a bit more discerning or more difficult, right? In terms of judging candidates. And it’s just really important to understand where [00:16:00] your gaps are as a hiring manager so that you can fill that gap.

[00:16:02] I think the idea that one sales leader, for example, is going to sit at the top as the king of hiring and all decisions go through that person. I think we’ve all seen that. I’m not saying it can’t work, but it’s certainly not what I would advise. It’s a team effort. We all have strengths and weaknesses, things that come natural or not as natural to us in all aspects of what we do.

[00:16:24] And so it’s important to know yourself and then surround yourself with a team that helps cover some of those gaps. So that’s probably the most important. And then I would say I have another one that relates more typically for me to internal hires, like, promotions, for example, and a very common one that I’ve been a part of in my career is like the SDR, BDR promotion to AE, You know, again, this is something we’ve all heard, but I would, I think it’s worth re mentioning, which is past performance is the best indicator of future success.

[00:16:55] said another way, and I know you know this part of it, Tom, but [00:17:00] there are people that are just better interviewers than others, right? I recall a story from my last company where we had two really qualified candidates going for one role and one candidate did. A little bit better in the interview process, but the other candidate had stronger performance performance that we could validate.

[00:17:20] The reason I say this is often more applicable to an internal hire promotion is that I think you and I both know there’s a little bit of fudging the numbers that can happen with external candidates. It’s like, I look at all these candidate profiles and everyone’s been just crushing their number every quarter.

[00:17:35] I’m like, why are you looking for a job? It seems like you’re having a lot of success. so that’s a little bit tougher, I think, externally. But internally, don’t discredit past performance. in that particular example, we went with the hire,  that had the stronger record of performance in the role.

[00:17:51] And that ended up being a great decision. We eventually promoted the other person and they have had success as well, but. I think it’s really easy [00:18:00] to get enamored with a brief interview process and not pay enough attention to just the hard performance in the prior. roles I completely agree. Justin, thank you so much.

[00:18:10] Some phenomenal insights. It’s great to get into your brain, allow others to kind of understand some of your tactics, techniques. so again, thank you very much for being on. I know you have an important customer call to get to, so I’m going to let you go. Cheers, Justin. Thank you so much, Tom. It was my pleasure.