Let’s get started. So for those who do not know me, my name is Jill. I am a recruiter here with Hirewell. I’ve been here for about a year and a half. And so, my previous life, I came from sales. I was in sales for a really long time. And then I kind of took a pivot to personal development, became a certified health and life coach.
Did that for a few years. And now I’ve found my happy medium here at Hirewell where I get to still work with people in a different capacity, but still be able to help them and promote mental health and get to do a lot of cool things with Hirewell in terms of DEI, supporting women, mental health, and all of the good things that we get to do here. And then, so for our panelists,
so ladies, I would love for you to just share what about this topic is important to you, what has you here today as you just do a brief little introduction. So, Jordan H., Take it away. Hello. So glad to be here. My name’s Jordan Hazelwood.
I work for Triton Exec, which is a sister company of Hirewell. Managing Director there. I’ve been here for four years in April. So it’s been a long time since I’ve been on the job market myself. But as we’re talking about a lot of things in the market today, I think being in recruiting gives some insight into that to inform this conversation.
But I did start out as a recruiter myself back in 2015, I think, I started recruiting. Ended up moving internal and I was in the mortgage industry for a while, accounting and finance, and the transportation industry as well, so, got a little bit of background in that. But this has always been a very important conversation for me, regardless of how trendy it’s been to talk about. The progress that’s been made is great and I think there’s still so much room to go. And making sure that we still have these conversations and have purpose behind these conversations, what we’re trying to achieve, how are we going to get there? What are the suggestions? What are the struggles? What are we still facing? I think there’s so much for us to talk about in these groups, and it’s great to see so many people engaged and joining in it.
Thank you Jordan. Appreciate it. Ali. Hello. Thank you for having me. So, my name’s Ali Rentschler. I lead the sales practice at Hirewell. I’ve been here for almost 10 years, about a little over nine and a half years. So it’s been quite a while. So super exciting. We started the sales practice around 2017 and we have 11 people now.
So it’s just been great to see that growth over the years. So, why am I excited to be here? This is definitely a topic as Jordan mentioned that’s been discussed a lot, but I think like diving into it a little bit more is great to do. And give some tips on things that I’ve seen, I’ve done, over the years, you know, share some of that.
And then I was actually one of the first women to join Hirewell back in the day. So it’s always nice to see how things evolve over time and how we’ve grown. So I’m very excited for this discussion today. Thanks Ali.
All right, Nicole. Hi guys. I’m Nicole Magats. I am a lead recruiter on Hirewells on-demand practice. So that side of the house really partners with businesses of all sizes and worked with them for a couple of months at a time to help them scale or create processes or what have you. And I mean, for me, I think as everyone has already kind of said, I mean there’s such an important piece of powering and lifting up women is to talk about stuff, right?
Talk about the fun stuff. But I think even too, the icky stuff, right? The barriers, the struggles, the failures, the things that aren’t at all glamorous and suck. And I think to kind of create spaces where we’re able to be vulnerable and share how we’ve overcome some of these things. But I think even too, are maybe still struggling. And break down the walls that can help us feel isolated, I think, when we talk and deal and go through with these issues in real life.
Absolutely. Absolutely. All right. Last but certainly not least, Jordan. Hey guys. Thanks for having me. So I am Jordan LeValley. I am on the tech team here at Hirewell. So I’ve been here for the past two years. I’ve been in recruiting space for the past five years. My prior life I did wedding and event planning. So that was a very, I would say, female-driven environment that I came from.
And, you know, I’m really excited to chat about this. Obviously I’m coming into an environment here at Hirewell, and not even just at Hirewell, but being in the tech space as a female. We are definitely really underrepresented on the women’s side, leadership side. So I think we have so much to offer as far as perspectives, diversity, our experiences.
So I’m excited to kind of dive into what else we can share and some things that we’ve overcome past few years. Awesome. Well, thank you everyone. Very excited for this conversation today. I think this will be definitely a good one. You know, sharing some insights just from our panelists. From their personal journeys and their personal space, but also from things that are going on in the world that we’re in right now, so.
So with that, I would love to learn a little bit more about our lovely panelists. What led you to become a leader within your organization? Or at least kind of heading down that path.
You know, was it natural progression? Was it a goal of yours? Tell a little bit more about how you got to the position that you’re in today. And so, Ali, you being here the longest, as one of our amazing, brilliant partners. Would love to hear you kick it off to kind of how you got to this awesome place that you’re in right now.
Oh gosh. So I think it was a little bit of both honestly. When I first started at Hirewell, I actually said, “Hey, recruiting isn’t for me.” My first job right out of school was in recruiting. Then ended up joining Hirewell now I’ve been here for a long time.
So I think, as far as career progression, absolutely. It’s just pushing forward. And trying to ask or asking a lot of questions and having support from everyone in the organization and then, you know, saying, Hey, this is where I want to be in two years, six years, 10 years, or maybe in three months.
You know, it could be, here’s where I want to be next week, but let’s make these small goals and then let’s get there. So, you know, I think it’s easy to be somewhere and not kind of push to get where you want to go. And especially as women in the workplace, things come up and you’re busy or maybe you want to start a family or, you know, certain things.
But as long as you’re kind of asking those questions and pushing forward. So, you know, I think that was definitely a big piece of it too. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, I feel like sometimes, you kind of find yourself in these positions and it becomes natural and then from there you can kind of, keep setting those goals, pushing yourself forward, you know, and kind of just seeing what happens. And so I would love to hear from the rest of the panel, any sort of natural progression where these-
you know, being in leadership, has that been something that you’ve always sought after, or was it kind of, once you find yourself in a career does it become a little bit easier?
Because I know, speaking from my experience, I pivoted. I’m in mid thirties now, started a brand new career just over a year ago. And, you know, I feel of course, I’m so grateful to be surrounded by such amazing women in this company and kind of, it’s a little bit different.
Whereas I didn’t see myself in leadership maybe a few years ago. But now seeing progression of women in this place, it’s a little bit more motivating. So with that said, Jordan, Nicole, other Jordan, speak to your experiences. Was leadership something that you’ve always wanted to, work towards and grow towards?
Or did it kind of fall in your lap? Would love to hear more about that as well. I think my experience is kind of similar to Ali in that it was a little bit of both. I definitely had ambition. I think I had a lot of natural qualities of putting importance on communication and making sure expectations are shared clearly.
And I think naturally being able to learn about the business while also looking for areas where there was a gap. Maybe we didn’t have someone in a role and we actually needed someone, or maybe we didn’t have one department on its own led by one person and we kind of needed to build that out. And I think there’s a big difference in what opportunities you have access to being at a larger firm versus a smaller firm.
And I’ve been at both in my career and I think progressing at a larger firm takes a lot more of pushing and fighting against kind of rigid structures, whereas in a small business, you’re able to come to the table and say, “Hey, I have an idea. I’ve noticed this, and we could really use something to solve that.”
And a lot of times just speaking up and being the person who says, “Hey, I saw something and I think I have a good idea for it,” is what will progress you. Awesome. Love that. Love that. I’ll add to that. Yeah. Like similarly, I think my journey is a little bit of a mix of both, but I think A.) while I naturally tended towards some of these leadership roles just with skills that I inherently had like A.) I still needed to make it a very intentional practice, right?
Like, just having the natural skills of being good at communication, things like that, didn’t just naturally make me a great leader, right? So I had to be very intentional about setting goals and you know, kind of like Ali said, right? Coming up with plans to make sure that I was also cultivating these skills too.
So I wasn’t, you know, like, “Oh, when I was 12, I was naturally a leader,” right? I had to make sure I was building these skill sets to be a good leader, right? Or a great leader. And I think even too, my vision of what that leadership looked like, right? When I was younger, it was definitely I think more stereotypically like the male dominated vision, right?
I work my way up. I’m the only female of the head of department, blah, blah, blah. And I think as I’ve A.) had more models for women in leadership and things like that, just what that goal looks like, I think is naturally kind of changed and has been a little more natural for me, and who I am, as opposed to this message that society has been kind of programming me to be working towards.
Yes. And we’ll definitely be touching on some of those stereotypes and gaps in leadership, in a little bit too. Jordan. Yeah. How about you? I think for me it’s somewhat of both, but I feel it’s kind of been a natural progression. I think I’ve always had a strong work ethic and like a passion to succeed.
So I feel like it always kind of came natural to me to take on additional responsibilities, even if I wasn’t in a leadership role. I think I always kind of gravitated towards helping coaching and mentoring specifically even the women on my team, and giving them a safe space. As you know, I might have a few more years of experience in the workforce and even in tech recruiting.
So I feel it kind of came natural just to step into that role. And, you know, the men at Hirewell always are like, what’s your goal? What’s your plan? Where do you see yourself going? Like, do you want to be in the lead position? And I think it also kind of has opened more ideas and doors for me to want to be in that leadership role that I’m in now.
So, I guess kind of both. Yeah, no, I love that. I think it’s important to recognize that there’s not a clear path. Everyone, kind of, fumbling around life as we all. No one really knows what we’re doing, let’s be real. But I think just like recognizing those skills and also experiencing strong leadership in different capacities.
You know, kind of recognizing, okay, what you like, what you don’t like, what works for you. And I think that also helps kind of mold us into the leaders that we want to be, that we are. So I think that’s great to hear that it’s kind of a little bit of both, so.
And so with that, so Nicole, you had kind of touched on before, which is your vision of leadership, kind of change, you said when you were maybe younger, what is now? And I think we all can maybe agree. I could. I can certainly relate to that. With that, what do you think are some of the bigger challenges that women in leadership face in corporate America today?
As recruiters, we see that a lot, unconscious bias or maybe work on some recruiting practices or even just like poor workplace cultures. But what do you think some of those, the bigger challenges are? For me, what I see is, I think sometimes there’s this perception that the work is done, right?
Like we have the month of International Women’s Month and we have X amount of women partner. You know, sometimes companies get into this mindset of, we fixed it and everything is equal for everyone. Then becomes this dynamic where, I mean, A.), it’s not. That’s just objectively not true.
And so you kind of like A.) are almost like reinforcing and still creating an environment where the mindset still can be the same without having to address it. Because there’s this overriding feeling that we’ve done the work. I think B.) that then puts women in a position to feel a little disempowered, right?
Because A.) they’re still having to convince people that there are gaps or issues or things like that. Seek out that validation. And I think even too, have to come to terms with the fact that, “Hey, like maybe I’m in an organization that isn’t supportive.” And have to kind of almost work through these things alone. So, you know, I think it’s,
obviously, that’s a very loaded answer and a very almost like non-answer because it’s, you know, everything. But I think at the end of the day, right, it’s a mindset piece and I think just, you know, there needs to be some recognition that there are still gaps and I think some acknowledgement that there needs to be work done.
And I don’t always see that happening in the way I think it should be. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. The work is never done. I mean, same goes through DEI efforts and everything. The work is never done. And we’ll see some of those comparisons.
And I’ve got some slides coming up here, but rest of the panel. Any other challenges that you see or maybe that you’ve experienced yourself in corporate America today? I think Nicole hit the nail right on the head. We do see a lot of progress and we see progress talked about.
And what I think people don’t talk about as much as that progress wanes, we might take a step forward. We might take a step back in another area. Just because we have made strides doesn’t mean they stayed, and it doesn’t mean they’re everywhere. So seeing a headline about a statistic being better for women right now is great.
But when you break that down, that might not be applicable even where you are at your company, or it might still be a huge problem for you. And like Nicole was saying, it ends up putting us in a position where we’re having to turn around and convince people, no, this is still a problem. You know, I’m still being steamrolled, I’m still being interrupted, I’m still being dismissed, I’m being looked over.
Because people don’t realize in the moment the specific action that they’re taking, and how that is going to turn out and might end up being a negative experience for a woman. Because we do need to keep pointing it out. We need to keep discussing it. We need to keep looking for ways that it’s intertwined in our day-to-day where we’re having unconscious bias and we don’t even realize it.
And women have unconscious bias too. And you know, it’s not like we’re all in a system that we haven’t been participating in. We grew up learning all of these things. We grew up learning that femininity is associated with being weak and being masculine is being strong. Like things like that. You don’t just, “Oh, that’s wrong.”
I’m going to go forward in my life behaving as though that’s wrong. Now I’m going to completely adjust. You have to take time and be able to address in yourself and in others where those are happening and where the detrimental effects are, and how you can really turn those around. Yes. Very well said. Very well said.
I think that was interesting, you know, that progress wanes. I think that’s a really important thing to recognize. You know, that goes for everything. But I think some of those very outdated stereotypes can influence and impact society as a whole, but continuing to point that out, it’s not just our responsibility, right?
It takes everyone to be able to close those gaps. But I think that just recognizing that, stating that continuing to talk about this, having conversations like this at least, we’ll you know-
It’s not the final answer, right? Because there’s no one solution for it. But I think just continuing to recognize the disparities, you know, recognize the progress, and celebrate the progress too. Takes a team to do so. I’m going to share some,
a slide. I guess some slides about the gender gap in leadership. And so I found some stats from LinkedIn and so as of,
so this was as of February this year. 38% of leadership roles in the US were occupied by women, but it’s been a sluggish, very sluggish, progress to closing the gap. And so the proportion of women in leadership in the US has only increased by 2% since 2016.
So went from 38% to 40%. Two percentage points in over five years. So just to kind of recognize it is a slow progress. So Jordan, literally to your exact point-
sorry for the record, this is not this slide. I’ll talk about the other slide in a second. But to your point, the progress wanes, right?
The progress, even though we increased a few percentage points by women in leadership, we still have a long, long ways to go. And so with that, so now this side. So this is showing just the gender gap in leadership is definitely not only evident in the underrepresentation of women in leadership roles, but also you can see right here the very disproportionate decline of women as they progress through the ranks of leadership.
So you’ll see from senior to manager, there’s a huge jump. And then even more so getting up to director, VP, even C-Suite. So, you know, just really just very glaring numbers and again, this is not to be discouraging, but hopefully motivating in the sense of we’re absolutely qualified, we can do this, but there’s a lot
long, long, long ways to go to close this gap, you know, and continue to promote women into these higher leadership C-suite positions. We’ll get, there might be a very, very slow progress.
But, you know, just to kind of show the numbers and the decline of that I think really speak volumes to where we’re at. And then so this, so also more glaring across different industries, you know, with significant disparities in certain industries. And I think as recruiters we definitely, definitely see a lot of this. Hopefully it’s okay to see, but the lighter bars that’s just the overall female representation in that industry.
And then the darker bars are the women in senior leadership or in senior leadership position. So for instance, you’ll see, so at the top accommodation, hospitality, so while women make up over 50% of that industry, only 39% are in positions of leadership. Same thing goes with, you know, admin support services. Same thing. Almost 50% women represented in that, but only a fraction of that are women in leadership.
Same thing with real estate, even retail. You know, you can see those gaps. Not as much in retail, but you know, definitely in real estate and some of those other industries where the leadership is definitely not there.
And then on the other side of that, you can see industries like construction, oil, gas and mining, transportation. There’s a very small percentage of women in those industries. You know, and of course with that, even lesser in leadership.
I do supply chain and manufacturing recruiting, that’s a lot of what my team focuses on. And definitely seeing those gaps close, but it’s still glaring across almost every single industry.
And I know Jordan being in tech and, you know, kind of seeing, I’m sure a lot of those disparities as well. This is just to kind of show where we’re at in terms of those industries. And I can’t help but think what we were talking about before with Nicole’s point of do you think this is due to media and stereotypes, you know, about gender roles? To just kind of see where those influences come from.
Kind of more a rhetorical question, but again, just to kind of show these disparities. So with that, panelists, I would love to hear, what you kind of, what you think about these statistics or even speaking from as recruiters. Do you think that we have a responsibility to address this?
Because I know as a recruiter myself, I take on a lot of wanting to push forward, work on hiring more, you know, diversity, you know, women in these positions. But you know, closing the gap is certainly not just on women, but with that, for empowerment purposes, what do you think? Is there anything that women can do or different question is as recruiters, do you think that we have a responsibility to address this?
So I think something, you know, especially being in tech, I’m not going to speak for all women, but I think something that most women kind of struggle to do is be an advocate for yourself. I think negotiate. Because everybody else is out there negotiating and clearly stating what they need, what they want, why they deserve it.
You know, negotiate your salary, negotiate the benefits, and have that confidence because you know, you deserve it and you know you’re right for the position. I think it’s always funny when I will chat with like a male candidate and you’re discussing compensation. They are so clear on what they need and they won’t go below it.
And then an hour or two later I can have a conversation with a female. And she’s like, “Well, I think I need this because I have x amount of years of experience.” And just trying to kind of justify and defend why she’s asking for what she’s looking for. And I think just clearly having that confidence to state what you need and what you’re looking for, I think can really get us to the next place.
Because we shouldn’t have to always justify and defend why we need things and why we think we deserve it. I think we need to have the confidence to know we deserve to be there. Yes, absolutely. Coming up to those compensation conversations, I’ve absolutely had where I’ve coached women that I’ve talked to and have said on the spot, “All right, so now that, you know, let’s practice confidence. You say that without questioning that.”
And of course, I have a relationship with them, but like, okay, yes, this is what I want. I’m like, just practice pausing. Don’t try and negotiate with yourself or like you said Jordan, like, you know, defending yourself with that. And it’s just so interesting because not only the gender gap in leadership, but gender gap in pay, which, that could be an entire other webinar about just the disparities in that. And I think that we see it every single time we have those conversations with those candidates.
But I think that’s definitely a challenge, but we’ll get there. We’ll get there. And Jill, I was going to say, I think something that we can do is just talk women up in the workplace. Like if something comes out and you can nominate someone, put your female coworker up for that and if there’s a win that you’re celebrating, like, I read something the other day on a McKenzie study that was
men are they’ll take the recognition a little bit more. And women are kind of like a little bit more timid to be like, I did this. This was me. I brought on this client or I made this happen. And so I think like, just promoting confidence in women definitely.
and then I think too, just as recruiters, so- something that, you know, I kind of struggle with, and it’s a little bit hard to say sometimes, is that when-
you know, sometimes I’ll have maybe like a client or an instance where it’ll be like “Hey, I’m worried maybe women are a little bit more like, emotional for this role.” Or maybe,
sometimes you get some of those kind of comments that are a little bit geared towards why they prefer a certain sex in their role.
And that goes for men too, sometimes they’re like the opposite direction as well, you know? But for this instance, I think like just diving into those things a little bit more and like calling them out. Like, let’s talk about this. Let’s think about this. You know what I mean? And being able to call out some of those maybe that’s their bias, but like, let’s think about this and why do you feel that way?
And you’re looking for the right candidate. Preferably, we’re not looking for a, you know, certain things that go into it on that aspect. So those are two things I think definitely would help. Yeah, for sure. Certainly called unconscious bias for a reason. But I love that. I think just a reminder too, which is an intention for why we’re here today, is to, I love what you said, talk women up. Encourage, just really promote that confidence. It’s not always easy, but I think coming together and even with our women plus ERG that we have things like that. I think it’s a step for sure in the right direction. We just have to continue to have these conversations and continue to promote that confidence. I love that.
What are some things that you all do, whether it’s kind of like your guiding compass or anything that keeps you motivated to keep moving forward. Keep progressing, keep advocating for yourself. Would love to hear some personal practices that helps you continue to move forward.
Jordan hit on a very good point earlier, which is advocating for yourself. And I think in addition to that, validating yourself. A lot of times I think it’s very natural for us to seek validation through the opinions of others and whether they think we did a good job, whether the group, as a whole, thinks we did a good job. We’ll self-analyze a lot retroactively of, did I say that right?
Should I have said that? Should I have let that person speak? Like sometimes even when we know we should be a little more assertive, because we’re trying to counter the fact that women tend to not be assertive in meetings when we’re brought to the table. Then we’ll go back on it and think maybe I was being a little bit bossy, like we will then in turn to be labeled the extreme of the other end when we’re trying to counter the original point.
So I think striking a balance of having confidence in yourself, but also internal validation and knowing that not everyone’s going to agree with you. Some people are going to think you came across the wrong way and that’s fine. That’s okay. Yes. Yes to all of that. Absolutely. I think that validation piece is so-
especially just with social media and just the media and just everything. I mean, we live in a country where we are less than. We literally have less rights than men in this country. So continuing to validate ourselves despite everything around us kind of bogging us down in that sense. It’s very challenging. Of course, much easier said than done, but again, I think these conversations and advocating for ourselves and other women, can help that validation, as opposed to seeking it from others and just kind of having a healthier mindset in terms of that. That’s huge. Something what Jordan was saying, I think we focus so much and like overanalyze and we’re so over critical of ourselves and I think I struggle with this and it’s trying to like-
what can I control? Like I can control my thoughts, my responses, how I’m going to respond to a certain situation and realizing what’s in my control, whether it’s my personal life or my work life. And just trying to realize there’s going to be a lot of opinions and outside noise that you can’t control and you just cannot let things like that consume you and just kind of be so critical towards yourself and just try to promote positivity and happiness within yourself.
And I think that’s like one of the biggest things I think I struggle with, I’m sure a lot of other, you know, women do is focus on what we can control.
I think it’s also important to note that there are times where, you know, we are the underdog a little bit.
And there are also times where we’re in a position of privilege even as women. And we should take that opportunity to look at how we can lift up other marginalized groups around us. Like it’s not just us. There are so many different ways that so many different groups are not given the opportunities that they should be given.
As unfair as it is, we can’t act like that’s not happening and that we don’t have a hand in being able to change that as well. So recognizing where we can use what we have or what position we’re in to make sure that we’re lifting up people around us and not doing the same thing to marginalized groups, that’s happening to us.
In order to like, have that self-awareness, and I think even too to like really be aware of what I can control.
Like, I personally need a lot of Nicole time. Like I’m a pretty introverted person. Probably mismatched, career wise, being a recruiter, but, I need to have those times where I can check in with myself and see like, how am I feeling? You know, if I have a meeting that feels a little contentious, right?
Or I maybe felt like I, not even contentious, but I felt bossy, right? Like, I need to like check in with myself after to make sure like how I’m physically doing so I don’t spiral or I don’t take that energy into another meeting or this, that, and the next thing, right? So, you know, for me, I really have to pack in these moments where I can have some quiet time, check in how I’m doing, and I think even too, use that to re-energize so I can keep pushing forward and keep moving forward in times that maybe don’t feel as easeful to do that.
Love this conversation. But yeah, I think just like going back to that focusing on what’s in our control, continuing to fuel ourselves with what we need. You know, and then on the other side of that, you know, what Jordan was saying about when women are in that position of privilege what can we do to carry on our mission as empowering women and other marginalized groups of people.
That’s a really, really important point, because I think that also, again, not on women, to close this gap. But I think just continuing to empower and promote that confidence and when we are in those positions, to continue to move forward with this mission. So I love that.
Are there any other kind of tips or practices that you all practice, where-
how to kind of be successful at work, but not let it consume you? I think that, again, kind of going into this what’s in our control and taking care of ourselves so we can be our best selves for our teams and everything, but also given remote work. So it’s easy to just work hours straight.
So what are some tips on how to continue to work forward, be successful at work, but without letting it consume you? I get so much of this advice, and I myself have to give myself this advice all the time. So I by no means have mastered this, but I will say be realistic and don’t get in the habit of all or nothing thinking where you’ve got a to-do list, maybe there’s 10 things on it.
You get three of them done, but you didn’t make much progress on the rest of the list. You still made progress. And I think we tend to have the attitude that like, well, I could be doing more. I could always be doing more. I could be trying harder. That doesn’t mean that you have to, you don’t need to burn yourself out.
You can make a plan. You can structure your day, whether it’s calendar blocking, whether it’s getting calls with someone for five minutes before you start working on something just so you can clear things up. Like finding the little ways where you’re using your time efficiently, but also recognizing that progress is progress.
You don’t have to make a hundred percent progress in one day to be able to pat yourself on the back.
Ooh, I love that. Talk about this with my therapist all the time. So remember to not just make a list of you have that glaring list of that to-do list that you know might only have a few check marks off, but also remembering to celebrate all of the things that you did do.
Yeah make a do list and a did list. I did that yesterday. awesome. And then I wrote on my list, made a did list. Yes. Yes. I love that so much. A do and a did list. Amazing. I love that too. I love just checking it off, so that’s great. Sometimes I’ll write it after I’ve already done the thing and then check it off.
Yes. Same. For sure. No, I was just going to say, I think just taking a break when you need it, especially working remote. It’s so easy to say, “I’ll put this meeting during lunch.” You know, “I’ll just do it during lunch.” And then it’s 4:30 and you realize you didn’t eat lunch or you get up and you’re walking to the other room to get on your computer and it’s 7:30 and you’re like, “oh, why not sit down” and then you don’t leave. So it’s really hard to have that in between of maybe commuting or those things. So take a break when you need it. Go outside, get some fresh air, if you can. I know it’s cold some places, but you know, just do whatever you need to do. It’s a tough market. Like it’s, you know, this job is stressful right now and a lot, I mean-
And that’s, you know, everywhere, right? Global things going on nationally, globally. It’s a lot of things going on that can be stressful in the environment, in the world. Just take a break when you need it and don’t feel bad about it. Everyone deserves some time to relax and just unwind and not look at their email and recharge.
You will be re-energized and better than you were before if you just really take some time to relax and step away. Yeah, definitely lots of self check-ins too. I love that what Nicole said, even booking on your calendar an hour with yourself to go through like a set of questions, maybe to just check in, see how you’re feeling.
And definitely after meetings where you know you’re in a heightened emotional state maybe, and we know we don’t always use the logical side of our brain when we’re worked up over anything. And that goes for everyone. But I think check-ins with yourself, and also making scheduled check-ins with important people in your life, whether it’s personal, professional. Just knowing that you have that point to talk about it, will help you kind of work through things that come up in the moment where you can assess later whether this is working, do we need to change something? But knowing that you have those check-ins, they’re going to happen. I think relying on those is really big as well.
I love all of that. I think with what Ali was saying, take those breaks, do those check-ins and not feel bad about those breaks. That’s something else that I work on as well is when I am taking those breaks or when I am walking my dog also making sure being conscious and present that you’re during those breaks, you’re not just thinking about work.
Because I definitely recognize that as well, where, it’s kind of sometimes it’s challenging for me to wind down at the end of the day and then I’m thinking of all of the things that I didn’t get done or that I have to do. And again, it’s a lot easier said than done, but I think just like starting with what feels good for you, if it’s scheduling out time, each day to take taking a full 30, 45 minute, hour lunch break every day just to kind of check in with yourself and. But also do what feels good for you too, I think is all great tips.
So full panel, would love to know where you’re at right now. Is there any advice that you would give to your younger self or maybe even those early in their careers or someone that, you know, advice that someone gave to you. What’s one piece of advice that you would give to your younger self right now? I actually wrote a note and you already made this point, but just to reiterate, investing in yourself and celebrating your successes is so big. And we already kind of talked about this, but even small things. You can still be proud of yourself for a five minute task because it was a huge stress for you.
Like there’s no general measuring scale for how great something needs to be before you throw a party about it. If you feel really good about the thing, celebrate it, that’s great. You shouldn’t always be looking at yourself as though you’re a work in progress and you’re not quite there yet because we are where-
the only thing that exists right now is this moment in time. The future is in your head and the past is in your head. So if you’re not appreciating what you have in the moment or seeing it for what it is, you’re still going to feel that way no matter what you accomplish or what you don’t. You’re always going to be in that line of thinking. So practice, I know it’s hard.
It’s not like you can just say it and like, “Oh, suddenly I’m happy and satisfied with what I’ve done. You really have to work on getting to that point, but I think it helps you, I guess, enjoy the ride a little bit while you’re going through a lot of the obstacles and things that you do, especially early on in your career.
Definitely. Definitely. I love that. Absolutely hit that home for every single day. We need that constant reminder. So appreciate that. Celebrate the success. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Something that I would say, and I wish I thought about this when I was younger, is don’t take everything so personally.
Like if you get constructive criticism or feedback, embrace it and keep going and don’t beat yourself up over it. And I think we take every little thing. So personally I do, I’m not going to say we as a whole group, but I think I take everything so personally and I still do, and I know, especially really young in my career, everything was like devastating.
I was like, oh my gosh. Like it was like the end of the world. So just try to embrace it and keep going and take risks. It’s going to make you more resilient, stronger, and more independent at the end of the day. So those are some of my tidbits. Love that. Love those. Yeah, love that too, Jordan. And just keep asking for what you want.
I think earlier on in your career it’s a little bit harder to say, Hey, I am interested in this side of the business. Or I feel like I deserve this position or this raise, or these are the things that I am excited about or want to bring forward. Like the earlier on you kind of come into your true self I think in your career, the easier it is to decide what you want to do, get to where you want to be, and really make a name for yourself and make it feel like it you’re excited about it on a daily basis. But also a little bit harder to do that when you don’t maybe have the confidence or the credibility yet. So just keep pushing forward and if you keep working hard, it will all work out for sure. Yes. Love it.
And then for me, like I, you know, personally, early in my career, I like to define myself or consider myself to be really adaptable, right? Like, so much so that I like really leaned into it. I wanted to be perceived that way. And I think as a result, I tended to be a big people pleaser. And I think even too, say yes to job opportunities or projects that in my gut, I knew weren’t probably going to be a good fit for me, but because I thought I could make it work for me, I was adaptable. I could figure it out.
I say yes to these things that honestly I had no business saying yes to because I knew like it wouldn’t be good for my mental health or even to just what I wanted to do. And so, you know, I look back and I wish I gave myself permission to trust my gut and like not be so concerned about the perception of saying no or even to like a bit of like wanting the glory of completing something right at the expense of my own wellbeing. So I think just giving myself permission to trust my gut and definitely not let it be at the expense of growth. But you know, not just say yes because I felt like I had to, or that’s how I wanted to be seen.
That’s a big one. I love that. Yeah it’s definitely adaptable, you know, is a fine line between that and people pleasing and just kind of recognizing that. Yeah, that’s huge. That’s huge. I love that. Well, thanks ladies for those tips. I was furiously writing down everything you were saying, but I really, really appreciate those tips. I think those are all wonderful advice for sure.
All right, so, we have a question. So after a long career in government, very male biased environment, I need a change. Are there particular industries or types of jobs where women encounter less bias?
Panel, what do you think? I can only speak for the industries that I have personally been in, but I can tell you it is not transportation. It is potentially mortgage insurance I felt was very fair. I had female leaders in that industry that I really looked up to. But again, statistically, I think that slide that you had is probably a good place to start looking industry wise, but also it’s a lot about who is in charge at the business and who they like to give voice to. Having women in charge and having men in charge who seek women to be alongside them to help make decisions that are not as biased.
Just people who are recognizing the work that needs to be done. I think in interview questions you can kind of weed out how they view issues like this and what their company’s doing to address them. And if they don’t have an answer for that, you know, that’s your answer. But it’s a struggle. I don’t think any industry is immune from any of these issues.
I definitely think there are some industries that just generally right now are better than others, but hopefully they’re moving in the right direction too. But yeah, it’s a struggle plenty in plenty of places. Yeah. Statistically there are industries even like HR, marketing, kind of some of the more,
those positions or even sometimes just like support or things like that. But yeah, I think that’s a really good point is that there could be some leaders. You know, unfortunately it starts from the top, right? If it’s male dominated, all leadership, that they’re not doing anything to promote women or anything like that, you can certainly find that out, in those interviews. or even just kind of seeing the work that they do might take a little bit more investigating. But I think you can also find out just asking or even to this person who asks the question, you know, having just kind of informational chats with HR, with other people from certain companies.
You know, just kind of get a gauge on that. It’s a good point. Doesn’t matter what industry or jobs, you know, I think it’s still progress, right? We still got to kind of recognize and ask those questions, right. Okay, so another one.
So as a recruiter, how do you go about advocating for qualified female candidates against qualified male candidates with male decision makers? This is a fun one. Just saw the eye roll. Yep. I think all of us on the call have probably dealt with that more than once, unfortunately.
I mean, what I do is sometimes I’ll play dumb and I’ll be like, “Oh, what do you mean by that?” And I’ll try to like get them to see what they’re saying and kind of use that as a way to challenge, right? What I find, especially folks that have those bias syncing pattern, they’re not going to be super self-reflective if you say, “Hey, it seems like there’s some bias in what you’re thinking,” right?
they’re probably going to get super defensive. They’re probably “no, no, no, no, no, no” and so I think the more you can kind of like dig in and get them to verbalize what they’re saying and use that as a way to kind of influence them, I guess, and kind of use their own words to counter maybe the criticisms that they have towards a female candidate.
That’s what I’ve personally done and I’ve seen a lot of success. I’ve seen more success like calling it out, whether it’s more discreetly or more explicitly, but calling it what it is and kind of getting them to challenge their thinking patterns tends to be helpful. Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. Okay, next question. How do we continue to progress gender equality in the workplace while incorporating the intersectionality of other underrepresented groups? I would want to start with obviously recognizing where those things intersect a lot of the progress that has been made for women’s rights has been made by the LGBTQ community, by people of color, like a lot of the strides that we’ve made so far are because of those marginalized groups, they’re just as much a part of this issue as anything else.
And I think talking about this issue entirely on its own, separate from all of the injustices we see across the board, is not necessarily the right way to look at it, because we wouldn’t be where we are as women without the push of all of those groups included. And I think recognizing that we’re not out here on our own, we’re here because of a lot of those groups, and there should be no question that the progress continues with everyone at the table talking about it.
Absolutely. Yeah. Very well said. Again definitely something that I think we can continue to discuss. I know that that’s a lot of what we do at least with different ERGs and different work that we do in terms of promoting those underrepresented groups.
Again, an entire discussion for that. But I do think it is important to recognize how it’s not just siloed, right? It’s not just siloed. It’s not just these groups like, it’s all underrepresented. Of course, some more so than others, you know? Absolutely. But I think just recognizing that as a whole, that kind of all come together with those different groups, not just siloed, certainly not.
And I would say in our day-to-day, especially in the industry that we’re in, recruiting, and being able to help and mentor people with interviewing, writing resumes, preparing for calls, preparing for new jobs. I think using what we can with the skills we have to go out into the community and say, “Hey, I’m willing to help. I know that I’m in this position because of privilege and I’m going to support you.” Like you have to be able to go into the community and offer what you have. It’s not always about just talking about it’s making sure that you’re impacting what the issue is to work toward a solution. Absolutely. I think that this is, you know, kind of just a stepping stone and to continuing to have these conversations about how we can continue to promote that more diversity in the workplace. Absolutely. But anyways, thank you all so much for joining. I really appreciated these conversations and thank you all so much for sticking around and joining us.
All of the guests, we really, really appreciate your support. And ladies, thank you, thank you so much for everything that you’ve shared today. I really appreciate all the work and help that you’ve, put into this. And just really, really grateful to be able to work amongst these just very brilliant, amazing women.
Thank you. Thank you for hosting. This was really great. Thanks, Jill. Yes, thanks Jill. All right, everyone. Well, thank you all so much. Enjoy the rest of your day, and I can’t wait to continue this work with all of y’all. Thanks, guys. All right. Take care. Bye. Bye y’all.