Transformative Leadership with Dr. Cheryl Camacho

Hello, social media followers, LinkedIn, Facebook, and everyone tuning into our show. Welcome to Beyond the Offer podcast. I am your host, Bill Gates, joined by my co host and friend, Rosanna Snedeker. Thank you for tuning in as we tackle the latest trends and challenges in talent acquisition and human resources.

We are very excited and welcome to have Dr. Cheryl Camacho as our guest today. Currently, Dr. Camacho is the Chief Learning and Program Officer at I.C.STARS, which is a non profit organization that creates economic opportunity for underserved communities by bridging disconnected young adults with higher growth.

Uh, within the higher growth tech sector. Um, Cheryl has also worked with other organizations like Teach for America, started her career as a teacher, uh, in the Atlanta and Champaign schools. She is very well educated, has her bachelor’s from U of I in sociology, master’s of education from University of Illinois,

uh, and also her doctorate in education leadership from Harvard graduate school. Dr. Camacho, we are thrilled to have you join the podcast. Welcome to Beyond the Offer. Thank you so much. I’m really excited to be here. Good. Well, we appreciate you joining. So first off, should I call you, is it Dr. Camacho, Cheryl?

What do you, what do you kind of prefer? Yeah, please call me Cheryl. Okay. Okay. Don’t want to be disrespectful there by any stretch. Um, but tell us a little bit more about your career journey, how you became the Chief Learning Officer, Program Officer, I.C.STARS, and just kind of, you know, the whole glimpse of your career in a nutshell.

Yeah, um, well, I started my career as an alternatively certified teacher in the Atlanta Public Schools through Teach for America, and that experience was really pivotal in my career journey and really highlighting to me, um, how critical it is that, you know, Everybody has access to opportunity. Um, I would say that’s been a theme throughout my career.

I, I continued on to become a master teacher. Um, I became a school leader, a district leader, and then I moved into the nonprofit space. Um, and I would say the through line for all of the experiences that I’ve had is that they’ve all been connected with really ensuring that all people, no matter what zip code they live in, no matter, you know, what their family has or hasn’t done or where they’ve lived that everybody deserves access to opportunity into a life of choice and fulfillment.

Um, and so my work at I.C.STARS right now. Has really focused on helping us think through how do we evolve our program into the future. The program is has been in operation for 25 years. Um,. Our founding, uh, CEO, Sandy Castro has recently transitioned out of that role and we have a new CEO, Karen Norrington Reeves and, um, you know, Both women are powerhouses and the work that Sandy did is an amazing foundation for the work that Karen and the team will do.

So my job really right now is to look at what’s really strong about our program and our outcomes. Where do we need to innovate or try some new things? And how do we ensure that The curriculum, um, the assessments that we use and the training that we provide to our staff all line up to ensuring that we really are supporting, uh, opportunity for the people that we’re serving.

Absolutely. How did the, just ICSTAR start kind of the mission, et cetera. How did it kind of come to be? Yeah, well, there’s a really cool origin story. So it started 25 years ago and it was launched uh, by Sandy, and I’m so frustrated. I can’t think of the founding leader’s name. Um, but there was, uh, another woman who was pivotal in really doing some research and, uh, standing up this idea that if we were able to create an opportunity pathway for people, it started in Chicago.

So really thinking through those who live in communities where there’s a lot of challenge, we were able to make a pathway into the tech space Um, at the time it was, you know, on the up and up and there was a lot of opportunity, things were booming, um, that that would be critical in helping people not only secure living wages, but enter a career that’s full of all kinds of promise.

And so, um, Sandy and the other person who founded, uh, stood it up. And worked really, really hard over the past 25 years to ensure that they were keeping the lights on. Um,. We received a Mackenzie Scott gift last year, which I think is a testament to all of the hard work, um, that many people have put into the organization over the past 25 years.

And I think, again, the challenge now ahead of us is how do we evolve? Into the future with lots of things facing us, things like A. I. Um, you know, the tech sectors ever changing. How do we evolve the program to ensure that it’s we’re still creating a strong opportunity pathway? Absolutely. And you guys have what, three or four offices, if I’m not mistaken.

I know Chicago is the flagship, but, um, is there Milwaukee, Kansas City? Potentially there any others? Yeah, so there are three. Um, Chicago, as you said, is the flagship and then Milwaukee and Kansas City, as you said. So three different cities that currently have an I.C.STARS office and we are interested in the next five years and exploring and thinking through how we expand different spaces.

So how does it work? Does it work? Obviously, you know, you’re connecting underserved communities and individuals with the tech sector, but, you know, how do you kind of manage that process with, you know, engaging with the underserved, picking the underserved communities number one and then two, like, is it just kind of, hey, I’m going to partner with as many tech organizations in those respective cities and then bring them together.

Tell us a bit how that kind of process works. Um, Sure. I think the first thing to emphasize that is a really important part of how we go about our work is that we understand that talent is equally distributed. And so the people that we select go through a very rigorous selection process, um, that’s largely focused on how they’ve navigated challenges and how they’ve demonstrated resilience

um, because the program is really intense. We have a training program that lasts about four months and then we have a 20 month residency program. And so the way that it works is people are selected in, um, they start the four month training program with something called team week, which is full of really

uh, interesting experiences that kind of push and provoke people to think through a lot of things. The idea of team week is really to take these amazing individuals who we’ve selected, who are used to, you know, navigating life as rugged individuals to get through all kinds of challenges and really ending the week understanding the importance of community.

Um, throughout the four months, they spend a lot of time learning tech, um, learning business, and also learning leadership. And, uh, our goal is for people to, of course, develop those skills. skills, but also to form a solid community that will continue to support them as they move through their tech career.

We call each cohort a cycle. Um, and so in Chicago, currently we are in, we are currently operating with the 56th cycle in Chicago. Um, and then again, we, we have cycles. Lower numbers in Milwaukee and Kansas City. The interns go through a 12 hour a day, five day a week training program. Um, again, like, very ,

uh, it’s really focused on experiential learning. So they form project teams and. They work with a real client to produce a tech solution that’s solving a problem for them. There’s also other things like we do 360 peer reviews, which if you’ve ever gone through that process, it’s, that’s an intensive process in and of itself.

Um, they assess each other’s leadership. Um, there’s so many things that they do to develop. Um,. When they graduate, they then move into residency where they have an entry level, uh, job in tech. And they engage in residency programming that develops their learning, um, ideally build some certification, uh, pathways for them and enables them to really think through, how do I ensure that I don’t just stay at an entry level tech role?

That I deliver a lot of value and I know how to navigate the space. I’m in so that I can move towards my dream career or some of people were learning emerging things. Some folks are really interested in becoming tech entrepreneurs. So that’s 1 of the things that we’re reimagining right now. How can we strengthen residency to support those folks who may not be interested in a corporate tech career, but maybe interested in becoming an entrepreneur?

Is there, like, a prerequisite regarding, like, I mean, are these kids of all ages? Is it graduating from high school? Do you target folks that are graduating from undergrad? A combination of both? Is it early, you know, earlier stage folks even before high school? Like, what, is there even, you know, criteria that kind of falls in that, um, that map determining who’s actually, you know, involved in the I.C.STARS program?

Yeah, currently we don’t have those kinds of parameters. So we’ve we serve people who are in their 40s. We serve people. Wow. They’re 20s. Yeah, there’s quite a range right now. It’s one of the questions we’re wrestling with, like, you know, should we be narrowing our focus a little more? Um, but currently the focus really is on serving people with limited pathways to opportunity.

And so whether that’s people who are justice involved, you whether it’s people who are working, but maybe are not making a livable wage, whether it’s people who have, we have a pilot program called I see moms, um, people who are younger mothers, newer mothers who want to establish a career, um, we want to ensure that we’re creating that opportunity pathway.

So typically we don’t accept people with college degrees. There’s maybe like. One exception we can make per cycle, um, or people with some college we have accepted, but we don’t want to accept people that have all of these experiences and, um, all of this access to different opportunity pathways.

Absolutely. Wow. And it sounds like there’s a good mix of like the learning, but then also like the real life experience, partnering with companies and getting that hands on experience, which is great. Yeah, that’s critical. I mean, we, we’re trying to be school, um, but we know that learning is something that, you know, it is a superpower really.

If you know how you learn and you know how to learn your way through challenges or things you don’t know. Um, you are just unstoppable no matter where you go. And so that’s a really big part of our training program. Yep. What challenges have you seen that you’ve had to kind of overcome during your time there?

Oh, just in general, like, I mean, I’m sure there’s, you know, a lot, like when you’re building and granted it’s been around for, for quite some time, but what have been some of the major challenges that you’ve faced during your time with I.C.STARS? Yeah, I think, I think the biggest challenge is really focused on what I spoke about earlier.

Like, how do we evolve our program into the future? Um, you know, we have stood up a really amazing data infrastructure, you know, in the past year and a half, and that’s enabling us to really see, like, with incredible clarity where we have challenges and where we’ve got to evolve. And so I think just bridging that, that kind of change management from this is what we used to do to this is what we’re going to be doing differently in the future that.

You know, in and of itself is a challenge for any organization and I solidly believe that the thing that can make that a smoother process is learning and thoughtful learning, you know, for staff to help them understand the why of the changes. But I would say, yeah, I think the primary challenge we’re facing right now is just, how do we evolve into the future?

Because there’s a lot that’s changed in just the past two years, and we know that those changes will only continue to more rapidly iterate. When we talked earlier, you started your career as a teacher in Atlanta and then in Champaign, and you’ve recently become an adjunct professor at the American University.

Tell us more about the courses you teach and how you’ve seen just the educational system change over the years since you were in school or when you first started teaching. Yeah, the course I teach is called conscious leadership. Um, I am a leadership geek. I love like leadership, learning leadership development.

I just love it because I think that we have a lot of assumptions about what it means to be a strong leader. And a lot of those Um, those assumptions and archetypes that we have have really shifted over the past few years. I think that the best leaders are the people who can lead situationally. Um,. And so the conscious leadership course really is about like, how do we ensure that we’re not just on autopilot as we’re leading?

How do we ensure that we’re really thinking about our context, what our teams need, what our organizations need, what the, what the world needs? And how do we ensure that we’re leading in a way that’s really intentional and honors all of the different people that we’re serving as leaders? And so I think, uh, When I think about some of the shifts and changes since I started teaching back in 2002, you know, I started teaching in Atlanta in the heart of the No Child Left Behind era where, you know, it was like test, test, test.

In fact, I was a first grade teacher. And remember that there was a rule at the time in Atlanta Public Schools that you could, kids could not have recess because it wasted instructional time. If we think about that and look to now, right, where it’s like whole child, extracurriculars, all of the things that I think are really important, I think that parallels with some of the shifts that we’ve seen in leadership and what’s required of leaders, where we’ve moved from a, sort of mechanical, um, robotic sort of, you know, like everybody gets 30 minutes of this too.

This is the human sitting in front of me that has amazing strengths and areas of growth. How can we support further growth using those strengths as a foundation? Um, I think that’s been a huge shift and one that some people are still really catching up with. Yeah. Well, and it translates into the workforce too.

Once you’re, you know, in your first professional job or in your career, everyone does things a little bit differently and learns differently. So, um, I’m, I’m a big fan of that. Um, and also just, you know, the talk of like the importance of going to college, you know, generations, you know, that was kind of ingrained.

I graduated 16 years ago, and it was like, that’s just what you do next. And there was a big, you know, high significance put around that. What are your thoughts on that with someone with your impressive education background, how important do you think going to college is right now for a successful career for someone?

Yeah, this is a loaded question Big one. I was also raised with like it’s not even an option like you’re just going I have a 19 year old son who’s brilliant, I think way more smarter than I was at his age for sure. And he’s decided that he’s not going to college, that he doesn’t, he said that he doesn’t want to take on debt.

He thinks that he can get where he wants to go. He wants to be a tech entrepreneur. Um,. He wants to get there by, you know, building apps and, and just doing the work. So we’ve had some interesting conversations. I think for me, It’s been really interesting. I come from a very working class family where not everybody went to college.

Some did, many didn’t. My grandfather on my mom’s side was a butcher. Um,. His whole life, one of the most brilliant people, um, that I’ve ever known, but he had really limited access. to college because he grew up in remote Newfoundland, um, where my mom’s side of the family comes from in Canada. And so, you know, having that experience growing up and seeing that never thinking that I would go to an Ivy League school, um, and then going to Harvard and earning my doctorate, it’s just given me a really, I think, complex perspective on it, where I believe that College is not accessible for a lot of people.

And I think what’s most important when employers are looking for talent is to really look at skill, um, to look at the skills that people bring. You can have a college degree and not have the skills. You can, uh, you can, You know, the reverse can be true, where you, you have a college degree and don’t have the skills, or you don’t have a college degree and have the skills.

And so I think there’s something happening right now in the employer space, which I’m really excited about, and something that, you know, reinforces why I’m at I.C.STARS, skills based hiring, excuse me, where we look at candidates skills and I think that college degrees are not all created equal, even within a college degree.

You’re going to find some people that really applied themselves and learned and some who are just trying to get that a on their transcript. Maybe didn’t pay that much attention. So I think it’s a great opportunity if you have a pathway to it. I know that I’ve grown incredibly through my time in college.

But I also think that not everybody has access to it and without it, you can still be really brilliant and really skilled. When it’s evolved and changed a lot, I think, you know, a lot of he’s talked about some of the leaders over the years. I mean, the, you know, the Bill Gates, the real Bill Gates is of the world, the Mark Zuckerbergs, you know, I granted they technically started in college and dropped out, um, from that standpoint.

But, you know, I think it has become more common for a lot of these entrepreneurs not. to go to college and be, you know, for folks like your son can look up to having people that don’t necessarily need to actually have a degree, um, to, to be successful, you know, in the grand scheme of things. So it is an interesting topic that continues to be interested in, especially with us in the recruiting world, you know, depending on the clients we’re working with and what the skill set is that, you know, they are looking for.

Um, Sometimes the, the bachelors and the masters, you know, isn’t, uh, as important to, to the individuals, but all, it all depends a lot of times on where you come from too, right? So. Yeah. Yeah. And the real life experience can be just as valuable. Plus, I mean, we talked earlier, kind of the cost, like, I mean, it’s, you know, it just, does it make sense for people to go into debt just to get a degree when they’re not even sure what they’re going to do necessarily?

So. For sure. Well, switching gears a bit more to kind of the talent management and the retention side, more so in the corporate world, what do you think are some of the like more important key factors when HR leaders are trying to, you know, increase their their high turnover in a company that, uh, You know, has seen some folks that, that have left an organization for one reason or another.

I think it’s, so there’s one, there’s, I’ve heard leaders on many sides of this, right? There’s one really, one extreme, it’s leaders that are like, well, this is a, this is an intense place to work. And the work is fast paced and it’s a lot, and we’re going to have high turnover. And then the other extreme, I think is like, oh my gosh, somebody left like fire alarm.

Like somebody left in the past five years, like what’s wrong. I think that it’s really important that we avoid both of those extremes. Um,. Turnover is going to happen. Uh, you know, people have aspirations and career dreams, and sometimes the job that they have with your organization is just a stepping stone towards something greater for themselves.

I also think that, you know, people who justify high turnover as, well, the people just aren’t cut out and it’s high intense. I think there’s some real leadership reflection that’s needed for leaders that are, that are saying those things or who are leading organizations with incredibly high turnover.

Even when the work is naturally challenging, um, having extreme high turnover is something that we need to pay attention to. And I think, you know, the nonprofit world boards need to pay attention to that as well. Um, I think that oftentimes, it’s a signal that there’s something off in the culture or the way that the organization’s being led.

I also think that sometimes it’s an indicator that there is no learning strategy for that organization, that we expect people to jump into roles and pioneer their way through it. Maybe there’s not strong onboarding. Maybe there’s not great, you know, learning experiences to help people really get solid at their role, especially if it’s their first time doing it.

Um, I led, uh, a nonprofit that was tasked with turning around five chronically challenged schools. Um, that is like, that’s burnout work. You know, for teachers, for principals, for leaders. And, you know, we were able to actually stabilize our turnover. And I think we were able to stabilize it because we created spaces where our teachers, our families, our students, they all had voice in structured spaces that would then inform our strategy and our budget.

We also were very intentional about learning and ensuring that when we got new teachers, or we got teachers who had experience, but hadn’t worked in our schools, that we really developed learning strategy to support them to be effective. So I think that, you know, high turnover is, is. a flag, but we should expect that we would have some turnover.

Yeah. It’s got to kind of live somewhere in the middle, you know, for sure. I guess taking that a step back from like retention, when you think about recruiting and actually acquiring talent in an organization, what is your thoughts on just kind of strategy and philosophy there to even just get people interested and, you know, to come into the organization?

Yeah, I’ve seen some extremes here, too. I’ve seen the extreme where people are like, let’s tell them all good stuff and get them in and then they can kind of experience the real deal. And I’ve also experienced organizations where it’s like, we’re going to front load all the challenges, right? And we’re going to let them know, like, we work, you know, into the evenings and weekends and And I think that it’s important to strike the balance.

I think it’s important to be honest with people because, you know, this is people’s careers and people should be well informed when they’re making the decision of joining an organization is right for them or not. I’ve certainly been in a position where, you know, a job was described. It sounded amazing.

It was like, wow, like this. And, you know, the first two weeks I started, I was like, this is amazing. Like they’ve got a snack closet, they got all kinds of things. And then it was like, Whoa, like, Ooh, Ooh, I didn’t know this. I didn’t know that. I didn’t. That’s not what was described to me. And I think that creates a level of resentment.

So I think it’s important from entry level roles to CEO roles to be really transparent, um, but to also really hold ourselves accountable to if there are things that would be red flags for folks, let’s lean into fixing some of those things, um, instead of trying to cover them up or, you know, front load them as just something that can’t be changed.

Onboarding has got to be a pretty big factor into that too, right? I mean, making sure you’ve kind of have the, a good foundational structure, no matter who you’re hiring on, you know, is it weekly check ins, how much is meeting too much with somebody to make sure they’re doing okay, but still also being able to give them enough tools, right.

And it’s different bringing in say like a senior level leader of a, at a C level versus like an entry level person, right. You know, from. College or with very little experience. So how you approach that I’m sure has got to be an important factor as well. That’s so true. I mean, the snack closet example that I gave it was, you know, I was hired as a senior leader, but my onboarding was very much like, here’s how you write an email.

And, you know, it’s like, what, like, I know how to do that. Um, and so I think you’re right, like, onboarding matters a lot. It communicates a lot to the new hire. And it’s got to match, um, the job that they were hired into. If you were hired to lead strategy, then your onboarding should help people be able to really understand strategy.

If your job is to execute stuff, then the onboarding should align to whatever you’re supposed to be executing. Absolutely. Yeah, and if those first, like, 30, 60, 90 days don’t go well, you know, it just, it sets the tone. They say there’s so much importance in when employees start, how they are onboarded for how long they stay with the company.

So. Yeah, well, another key factor and a real popular point is you know, equal pay, right? Something that people care about a bunch, but bridging the gap between equal pay for women, ethnicities. It’s been a hot topic for many, many years. Um, you know, and not only federal state level, et cetera. Um,. What have you seen as some of the biggest challenges, um, and solving to these problems and putting together solutions, um, you know, at a company or a governmental level?

Yeah, this is a loaded one. I’m going to try not to pull me pull me back if I start to go down a spiral. Okay. Um,. So I think first and foremost, transparency is something that can really help. So I think that if people understand the band, the salary band that they’re being hired into, they can understand sort of what the ceiling is floor is.

And that in and of itself, is critically helpful in ensuring that there’s some, you know, equity and transparency around pay. I also think that, you know, I, I was a teacher, you know, for seven years, and one of the things that just really demoralized me was, like, no matter how hard I worked, no matter how impactful or effective I was, I was just gonna be on the same step as anybody else who had been in the district for as long as I had been, whether they were effective or not.

And so I’m a big fan of being very clear on what the competencies are that will drive success in the role, like what the, the wins are in the role, and then if people meet them, I think that, you know, compensation should match that. Um,. If you’ve got a high performer, you should compensate them for that, whether they’re a man, woman, black, white.

Um, I think that’s really important. That, paired with the salary ban transparency, I think can do a lot for equity. And then I think something else that I’ve seen that I know is well established in the research is that, uh, certain groups are less likely to negotiate for a variety of reasons. I know for myself, that’s one of the courses we had to take at Harvard was a negotiation course and it was like eye opening.

Because, you know, especially sometimes as women, we’re socialized, like be nice, like agreeable. And so negotiation sometimes brings to mind, like, you know, shark tank, like stand and like, and that’s not really what it is. Great negotiation is It’s really about, you know, finding win-win solutions for, both sides.

And so I think for me, like ensuring that there’s a solid policy or practice around when people get raises, when they get performance bonuses, um, how we establish an entry level salary within the band based off of experiences and credentials or skill, whatever it is that we think is important as a company.

I think all those things can really help. Yeah, well, it’s such a challenging topic, too, because, you know, it’s an uncomfortable thing to talk about, right, how much you make or how much you willing to pay. It’s not everyone is inherently, I think, a bit for not everybody, but a lot of people naturally are, you know, afraid of confrontation and, you know, when you’re talking about paying individuals, it can be a bit more uncomfortable and, you know, as you said, there’s a lot of times where people feel Uncomfortable about negotiating, right?

I mean, on Ro and I side about just when we work with a particular client on, you know, a comp range and a structure, right? We have a certain criteria that we’re looking for. Um, now there have been some things from a state level perspective that a lot of states have done to where you can’t ask what they’re currently making versus what are the, you know, what are they targeting?

That happened what, five, four, five, six years ago or something like that, which gives, you know, candidates more um, leverage than, you know, person come in and say, well, this is how much you’re making. We’re only going to give you this much of an increase, or we’re going to pay you X amount, you know, more because it’s a similar job, et cetera.

So yeah, it’s, it’s always one of those topics that becomes a little bit more comfort confrontational, but it has become more recently in favor of the employee than it has been with the employer. At least that’s what I’ve seen. Yeah. I think there have been important shifts. I still think I want to see more improvement, you know, at least in the nonprofit sector around in school districts, quite frankly, but I know that there’s a lot that goes into those steps.

Um,. But I’d like to see, you know, more structured, thoughtful protocols around how you ensure that you’re taking good care of your people who deliver and who perform well. Um,. You know, unfortunately I think there’s a common story that people just put their heads down and work and they get what they get and they’re not making a fuss about it.

Like it’s good for the company’s bottom line, not to increase their pay. So I think just more thought around that. I think in the longterm, that’s a much stronger and thoughtful strategy then. You know, trying to nickel and dime your employees. Yeah, with the school districts, it feels like teachers have been speaking up more about that.

I mean, I have, you know, personal connections, even at Hirewell, we’ve hired former teachers to get into recruiting, but it does feel like there’s been a movement there where they are standing up for themselves versus it being like, Oh, we are a teacher that’s low pay, you know, it’s kind of just how it is.

Like, So hopefully that continues as well. Yeah, I agree. And those skill sets are so transferable into a lot of different jobs, so they are very marketable candidates. Is it still like, is it still the case, Cheryl, with I mean, this may have changed, so my perception might be off, but from what I gathered, I remember growing up with teachers for them to get increases in pay.

It was really more along the lines of them, increasing their education and getting MBAs or their doctorates for them to be able to go to a different threshold. It wasn’t really, You know, how their teachers necessarily performed per se was more on, hey, can I get that next degree to essentially get a higher pay?

And I know every school district may be a little bit different, but given the fact that, uh, you know, you’ve been in the education space for a while, is that still the case with a lot of places or is that changed? Yeah, there’s, there’s some changing happening. Like I know there were some early pioneers in merit pay performance bonuses for teachers.

I know that we also did something like that where I was leading the school turnaround where oftentimes you find people, once they get a certain amount of experience, they want to move on to a district that pays higher, oftentimes in a community where, you know, uh, it’s less complex to serve and to connect with.

And so um, what we wanted to do, we were serving very high poverty population. We wanted to pay the highest amount. Um, we’ve offered stipends on top of our negotiated contract with the teacher’s union. We offered stipends that paid more to those who worked in our more challenged, more complex schools, because You know, the children in those schools are just as brilliant as the children sitting in wealthy schools, and they deserve access to teachers that are really strong.

So I know some districts have toyed with performance pay performance bonuses, but largely it is increasing your education or just getting that additional years of experience that’s going to boost your salary. Yeah, the tenure. Yeah. Um., well, shifting to D. E. I. That continues to be a focus for companies.

You know, companies are still hiring leaders to oversee diversity, equity and inclusion within organizations, I guess, from your perspective, have you seen companies put more less emphasis over the past four years in D. E. I. And for the companies that are doing it right and kind of making those strides, what is working for them?

Yeah, so personally, right, like in my sphere, I’ve seen companies maintain course on DEI priorities. I know, of course, like if we look at the, the research and what’s happening in different sectors, including the tech sector, we know there has been some retreat from DEI and I anticipate that, you know, with the new administration, there may be some further retreat.

Um, I think that the companies that are doing it right, are focused less on aspiration, like, uh, you know, cloud in the sky, like, like theoretical act, like they’re focused on the concrete, like lived experience of people. So what we spoke about earlier with pay equity and compensation. Like that’s super concrete, the money that you bring home, right?

Um,. You’re working conditions and what it’s like to engage with your manager and your manager skill at being able to navigate across lines of difference. Like that’s something that’s super concrete. Um,. So I, I think, you know, after the George Floyd. Incident, I mean, a lot of companies put these aspirational statements out and, you know, all this aspirational stuff.

And I think that the companies that have gotten it right and who will continue to get it right are focused on, like, the very concrete lived experience of the people who work in their company and or the people who they’re serving through their work. Um, I think they’re the ones who are getting it right, because.

They’re being really thoughtful about it. The other thing that I want to say about that is, um, I believe that it’s really important to approach that work in a developmental way, just like any other area. I think, like, thinking developmentally about things is really important. So, um, the truth is, there are some people who don’t know, who don’t have the skill to operate across lines of difference.

We should ensure that everybody has a learning pathway, um, whether they are skilled or unskilled. If you give them the opportunity to learn and they take it, they will grow. And they’ll become proficient in that if they’re committed to it. Um, if they’re not, that’s a different story. Um,. But I think too often we get stuck up on like jargon and who’s saying the right thing politically.

And the truth is, uh, what really makes a difference are people’s, you know, human by human experiences. So if I’m working on a team and I’m the only person of color, um, and my team develops skill and being able to understand some of the dynamics that might come up, that’s going to make my life, my work life more enjoyable, um, and more fulfilling.

And it’s going to make their work life more fulfilling and enjoyable because I’m going to be engaged. Um, if I’m in a space where I’m just, you know, X’d out because I don’t know. And I haven’t had access to learning around something. I think that that’s really challenging. And I think that creates some of the really entrenched division that, that we’re seeing more of, you know, year over year, one thing with DEI too, like, you know, Ro and I’ve placed folks that, uh, a lot of individuals in HR that that’s been a focus, um, in terms of the credentials, but measuring it as well.

Like what is a diverse equity and inclusion environment. What is an optimal environment? Each, you know, each company, each University each, you know, may have their own definition of what that necessarily may look like. But what are their key kind of factors and KPIs in terms of how you measure those?

Because that’s for me to kind of gauge those things. That’s always been the hard part for me to kind of understand, um, from a numbers perspective standpoint, right? Because, you know, especially with a company, right? You’re looking at, you know, The recruiting group, and then, you know, you’re looking at maybe the other side of the equation where there’s a chief diversity officer and whatnot, and they’re trying to make everything more equitable, more diverse, including more individuals, et cetera.

You know,. The recruiter, which can be more challenging on obviously the recruiter that might be working on a particular job. So those folks tend to kind of bad heads, but are there back to the point about like the KPIs surrounding creating an optimal. DEI workforce, what are the key metrics that you’ve, you know, understood?

And maybe they’re different at different organizations, but what are your thoughts there? Yeah, that’s such a good question. I mean, I think, I think on a, like a macro big picture level and then on the nitty gritty micro level. So with the macro, I think it’s less important to say like, this is our, um, this is our goal, you know, for the number of

people of color that we’re going to hire. I think it’s more important to really honestly track, you know, trends around people of color that we’re hiring, that we are promoting, that we are firing. Um,. Right. Like that’s going to give real insight into things that need to shift either at a policy level or a practice level.

On the micro level, I think that what’s really important, I like to think In my work with I.C.STARS, we’re really focusing on identifying what we call the critical behaviors. What are the critical behaviors of each role on our program teams that are going to lead us to success? Um,. What are the critical behaviors that we want our interns and residents is what we call the people that we serve interns in the training program and then residents in the residency program that we want them to have when they launch their careers in tech.

So I think for each company that’s going to look different. But how? What is what is our vision for how people operate? Um,. And, you know, there’s lots of really great frameworks out there that I think can really help a company that serious about that. Um,. You know, do you want people to be able to give feedback effectively across lines of difference?

Do you want people to be able to navigate conflict effectively across lines of difference? Um, those are just two, you know, critical behaviors that I think would be important for most organizations. Um, but I think that’s important because what happens when we start to set targets like, you know, 30 percent of our organization will be African American.

The problem with that then is that it begins to feel like a quota. Which is actually quite harmful to the black people you’re going to hire into the organization because people will be like, Oh, you helped meet that quota. That’s why you’re here. And that’s actually not true. I remember when I was a senior in high school, I got accepted into the University of Illinois.

I went to high school in a small rural community. It’s called Rantoul, Illinois. I don’t know if you’re familiar, Rosanna, but I am. Okay. Yeah. Super small, like heavy industry, like surrounded by farms and, you know, Um, I got into the U of I, which that was considered like a big deal at our high school, you know, it was like not the Harvard of our space, but it felt like the accessible but inaccessible university for people in my community.

And I remember somebody saying to me, well, that’s cause you’re black. That’s why you got in there. And that was really jarring to me, you know, and it took me a couple of years to kind of shake that off. Like, no, I got in because I deserve to get in. I earned getting in. Um,. And so I think when we set these arbitrary targets, for one, if you set a 30 percent target, you’re, putting a ceiling on what happens if 50 percent of the people that you want to hire Africa, what if 50 percent of the candidates who are the top are African American?

Like, um, and for two, I think it just creates like a level of distaste and, uh, questioning for other staff members when you hire somebody from that demographic group in. So again, I think just being really focused on how do you ensure you’ve got a diverse pool of people? How do you ensure that the people that are hiring have been trained to, know and manage their biases?

Um, I think those things will gain far more than, you know, just setting some arbitrary target. Yeah, completely. And like you said, tracking promotions or how many people aren’t working out, like that type of real data is going to make change versus just, okay, we hired someone, check that box. Let’s move on.

Like, what are they actually doing once they get into the organization? 100 percent Especially with companies. It’s also. You know, a lot of the times I do think from 2020, whether we’d like to admit it or not, and I know a lot of these companies will not, but they created chief diversity titles for individuals to create a perception that they, you know, have kind of fit into the norm and that they’re really about it, but it’s really, you know, an illusion sometimes that, uh, really, they, they may have created this title and whatnot, but in reality, you’d start digging and, you know, looking underneath the hood, you know, They really didn’t care necessarily longer term about, you know, creating a diverse workforce.

It was more perception from the outside. Well, we, hey, we just hired a chief diversity officer. So how can you not, how can you think we don’t want to hire diverse? So, you know, listen, I can’t say that everyone’s necessarily like that, but I can see there were some circumstances to where. There was a bit more of that perception element and, you know, gradually it eventually went away.

But, you know, it’s, uh, it’s, it’s seen, you know, I think there’s the KPI piece is very interesting, uh, Cheryl, what we’re talking about and having the quota piece can be pretty dangerous on on both ends of the spectrum and aligning well with your leadership of what do we actually see being an optimal D.E.I. Workforce for our organization.

Whether it’s a university company or whoever and making sure everyone’s aligned with that moving forward and gradually can change too, right? I mean, that’s what happens over time. So, yeah, I think being performative with that. The work is too serious and consequential to be performative with it. And so, I think, like, to your point, companies who’ve hired a, a person to manage that diversity stuff, like, it’s just, you know, can’t live with a person or a department.

It needs to be, if you’re serious about it, it should be, like, embedded into your organization. And there’s been huge turnover, um, in, you know, chief diversity officer roles for that very reason. So I, I, I really appreciate your point there. Yeah, we appreciate you certainly being here. Um, and we’re going to wrap up really quick with an unfiltered more random question segment to wrap things up.

But, um, so if you were, let’s say, Cheryl, you were to start a new business tomorrow, what would that 📍 business be? And why? Um,. So I, I have a business. Um, I actually, I have a consulting firm that I started a couple of years back. It’s, it’s pretty small and, um, you know, it’s really focused on helping organizations and companies think through how to customize their learning strategy to either ensure that they’re setting the right strategy for the future.

Um, but where I’ve seen a lot of real traction is in helping them think through how. When the strategy’s been set and you want to execute on it, um, learning can be the thing that really protects and, and promotes strong execution, you know, for folks that maybe weren’t in those strategy sessions. And so that’s something that I do.

But if I had to pick something different, like a new, um, company, I would probably want to open like a candle making shop or something fun like that. Um,. Something that brings together people, but enables them to make stuff that they’re excited about. I think that’d be a lot of fun. Candle making shop. Wow.

That’s not what I was expecting. Yeah. Those are becoming popular though. They’re definitely popping up. Yeah. And candles are just so, I just love candles, you know, like when they smell good and they’re pretty. And, um, I actually, I have two daughters who are teens. And so I took them to a candle making shop maybe two months ago.

It was a great experience. And I was like, we need more of this. And then I was like, if I had this business, I would fix that, that, that, that, that, that. So I think that’s what I would want to do. Yeah. Well, and you can customize them to your personality and like, you know, your smells. So it also has like a creative aspect.

Yeah. Um,. Well you said you were what you would do different for that company. I guess next question to that, what would be like the first three things you would do when you start your business? Well, I think it’s always very important to get really clear on, you know, what is your value proposition to your, to your customer.

Um. So like really thinking through who I want to serve, um, and developing, uh, a business plan around that, doing my market research, you know, ensuring that whatever I’m setting up is going to be responsive to the market. And then of course, marketing and communicating and thinking through what that strategy would be.

That would be very important. Yeah, well now there’s so many ways to market social media to different demographics, different ages, so there’s a lot that goes into that last piece. Were you a Shark Tank fan, Cheryl? I love Shark Tank. I thought I do too. I love, love that show. I still do. It’s still obviously going on, but yeah, a lot of the, I figured you may be a big fan of that show based on a lot of the answers.

You have that entrepreneurial spirit in you. You can easily tell. Oh, thank you. It’s a compliment. Maybe one day we’ll see you on there. Maybe you will. Selling some candles. Selling candles. Exactly. Yeah. Well, Cheryl, thank you so much. Like Bill said, we’ve really enjoyed this conversation, but that is all we have time for today.

So I wanted to thank everyone for tuning into this week’s episode today. We met with Cheryl Camacho and we discussed her career, the education system, DEI, and much, much more. We will be back again next month with a new special guest. And as a quick reminder, how you can support The Beyond The Offer podcast, you can find all of our content on the Hirewell social media platform, which you can find through Hirewell.com take care everyone. And thanks for tuning in. Thanks, Cheryl. Thank you.