Hello, social media followers, LinkedIn, Facebook, and everyone tuning into our show. Welcome to Beyond the Offer podcast. I am your host, Bill Gates, and joined by my co host and friend, Rosanna Snediker. Thank you for tuning in as we tackle the latest trends and challenges in talent acquisition and human resources.
This is our first episode of Beyond the Offer, and I am pleased to be joined by Kailey Mack, who is the Director of HR at Therapy Partners Group, which is a physical therapy and wellness brands company, which has over 1500 employees nationwide. Kailey has over 13 years of HR experience and has worked in HR at companies like Best Buy, Manifest Digital, and Mérieux NutriSciences
kailey is a well rounded HR professional who has worn a lot of different HR leadership hats throughout her career. Hirewell and myself personally has known you for a long time and have been lucky to also place you twice throughout your career. We couldn’t think of anyone better to kick off our podcast than you. Kailey, welcome to Beyond the Offer.
Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here.
We appreciate you joining. Well, to dive right into it. Give us a little taste in, terms of how did you get into HR originally? What drew you to the field, et cetera.
Yeah, I actually have a really funny background story about HR, probably very non traditional. I actually went to school, I got my master’s to be a marriage and family therapist and nothing related to HR. And while I was in school, I worked at Best Buy and I did some recruiting for them and just found myself really gravitating towards wanting to go to work. Obviously still completed my education and still graduated.
But just, I realized kind of throughout that process that HR was really- that’s where I was excited. That’s where I was kind of really drawn to. And so, I just ended up meeting with a few HR leaders, one associated with Best Buy, who was a wonderful mentor. And then another was actually family related, who was an executive in HR.
And, really just became that annoying person who picked their brain, asked a lot of questions, how do you get into HR, not having any, you know, formal training and schooling, it was difficult, but once I got in, I’ve never looked back. It’s exactly what I should be doing, want to be doing. And I’m just happy to say that I chose the right path, so.
You live in the Chicagoland area now, but you originally, you’re from the west coast, right? Washington or? I’m from seattle. Yes. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. A Gonzaga Alum as well, it looks like too. Yep, Gonzaga. I’m a transplant to Chicago, but I’ve been here for 10 years actually in July. So it’s kind of a home away from home. After 10 years you’re a local, I feel like.
Right, exactly, exactly.
I always forget that you’re from the West Coast. I usually thought that you were from Boston, but then I remember that your husband’s from Boston. He’s the Patriots fan, if I remember.
Exactly, yeah, and we are literally from opposite coasts. I mean, Seattle, he’s from New Hampshire. And Chicago is just a perfect blend of both. You know what I mean? Like we have all types of people. There’s a lot of transplants. It’s a really great place for people who are from literally opposing everything.
Love that. Well, thanks for giving us the kind of intro of how you got into HR. I guess thinking back to when you first got into HR, what advice would you give yourself in your first professional job?
There’s so many things I would like to talk about. Yeah, for anyone. But like, looking back, what advice do you have? Yeah. I guess I can narrow it down to one. I mean, I would say, unless you want to be in a specific facet of HR, because some people do, and that’s wonderful, don’t pigeonhole yourself into a position. You know, learn as much as you can, do the grunt work. Unlike a lot of industries, you know, HR is no different. But working from the ground up is a lot easier, and I think having gone through a lot of, like, HRS implementations, I worked as a coordinator in the very beginning.
I learned how to input a new hire and do those, kind of rudimentary tasks that, at the time, you’re like, oh, this is awful. It only helps you as you grow in your career because how are you going to lead a team or manage people if you yourself have not done a lot of that work? That’s what I would tell myself now is take that opportunity to really learn those fundamental skills that just proved to be so important down the road.
Good answer. I know there’s probably a ton of misconceptions about the HR function in general, but what do you think the biggest misconception about the HR function, you’ve been with several different companies before, but in general, what do you think the biggest misconception is?
I know you asked for one. I’m just gonna give two. So I would say because I don’t like to follow rules, even though I’m in HR. So I would say the first misconception I think a lot of times is that we’re employment attorneys. I honestly I don’t need to really go into that. say more about that, but I think that is very much a common misconception.
It’s not the case, nor should it be. We should be advisors and partners to a legal team, but I don’t think we should be the sole decision maker in that aspect. I think the other one, I read this LinkedIn article. It was really fascinating. And it was talking about basically that we are conditioned as HR professionals to be the decision maker.
We want to work alongside our key stakeholders and, help them out. But a lot of HR leaders really think that it’s our job to make those decisions. A lot of people suffer from burnout because of that, because people aren’t taking their guidance, they aren’t the decision makers as an HR leader.
And so I think kind of coming to terms with the fact that you are there as an advisor and a consultant to make the best decision, make the most ethical decision, provide guidance and hope that the decision that was made, that they took your advice, they took your guidance. And so I think finding that balance of you want to be supportive and help the organization move forward, but you are not the sole decision maker in that, is a good way to say it.
Do you typically get a decent amount of pushback in those circumstances to where you advise a business leader, somebody at the C level, whether it’s a performance issue, whether it’s to hire some executive, et cetera, is there a good amount of pushback typically there?
I think it all comes down to what relationship you’ve built with those leaders and what your credibility has been. Have you made a compelling case? Have you used data analytics to support your argument? I think it really just comes down to I mean, ultimately those interpersonal skills. What is the relationship we’ve built and are you credible?
And a lot of times, no. And if there is pushback, I personally think conflict is very healthy. I think it actually propels you forward in an organization if you don’t see eye to eye, cause then you can help educate or they can educate you on why you feel a certain way and why that is right, wrong, this, that, and the other.
So no, I think some pushback is good, but I think if you’re making a compelling enough argument, there’s not a ton of pushback.
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. You brought up a word burnout, and I know during the past four years, not only HR, I think all professionals have felt that in some way, shape, or form.
I guess during kind of that COVID period when you were at Mérieux and how working through those times, it’s all new, but HR was kind of at the forefront of it. How did that impact you both personally and professionally?
I mean, COVID created just chaos that it was really unlike anything I’d ever experienced, either personally or professionally.
And while it was an incredibly unfortunate thing, obviously, to go through, one thing that I look back and I’m grateful for is I think COVID gave HR a seat at the table. Especially in very more traditional corporate environments. We were looked at for guidance. Looked at to develop a strategy to keep our employees safe, respond to various circumstances and scenarios.
And I think people really started to realize the power and value of HR. I actually am grateful for that. Again, not obviously at the cost of what COVID caused, but I’m very grateful that we really got a seat at the table. And then I think personally, COVID consumed my life. I mean, it was two years of just nonstop.
A lot of back and forth. There was a lot going on. It was ever changing. We were looked to as the experts. So I’m very grateful. I did not have a child, a young child during that time. But you know, again, I think it was both personally and professionally, I think it was fulfilling from the standpoint of we were valued. Yeah.
Absolutely. Yeah. Switching gears a bit, I know you’re not a recruiter necessarily, per se. Not a good one. That’s what we do. I know it’s not-
That’s why we’re here for you. Exactly. You’ve been recruited by us and other places you’ve joined. And then you’ve also, I’m sure you’ve been a part of interviewing people at your companies as well for your team and whatnot.
But what has kind of been the biggest challenge within talent acquisition and the corporate recruiting function in general? Has there been like the biggest challenge in terms of attracting talent interview process, et cetera, like, things that have kind of, been challenges to not be able to get individuals that you want onto either your team or within other corporate functions groups?
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think in my personal opinion, truly, I think it’s a lack of, I think empathy, I’m going to say in consideration for what recruiters are faced with. I think in certain situations and markets, there is a limited pool of candidates.
There just is. That’s the real nature of it. And when that feedback is provided, oftentimes to your key stakeholders, it’s looked at as like an excuse or, you know, TA isn’t exhausting all the possibilities that they have. But they have to operate within the scope and structure of what they’re given.
If they’re told to hire someone at $50,000 and all applicants are asking for $60,000 and that’s been a common theme and the time to fill supports that, then you need to revisit and have a discussion about those parameters that are set. So I think that’s a big part of it. And then the other part is, I think a lot of times executive leadership gets caught up in what they believe the market pays.
It can cloud what is the reality. And I’ve been there. I mean, if I look at what I made as a coordinator years ago, versus what coordinators are making now, it’s drastically different.
So I think getting out of your own way and listening to the feedback and the experts that you hired, which is TA to tell you this is the market and then work with HR to also kind of give that data to support it. But if candidates are telling you this is what we want to be paid, I mean, there is some truth to that,
that you can’t just set aside. I think that happens a lot of times. For sure. We experienced that all too often. I have so much respect for what you guys do day in and day out.
I honestly, I just, I could never do it, so. Well, and I think like the last thing to not to keep harping on this topic, but you know, hiring and retention go hand in hand. And I do see at every organization I’ve worked with, a lot of times the heat is on hiring and bringing people on board and they get that. But, then it shouldn’t be a drop off point where you’ve now hired this person, and then they’re just set to go on their merry way. There needs to be just as much investment in training them and providing them the tools to succeed, or else it’s just going to be this literal ending cycle of like, one person in one person out and that’s just exhausting and that’s never going to be successful.
So I think there should be just as much emphasis and structure and care and passion, whatever you want to call it on retention and turnover as well as hiring.
Completely. Yeah. Well, in the recruiting market the past two years, it’s been so up and down. Two years ago, it was a hundred percent of candidate driven market.
We’ve seen things shift a bit over the past year and a half. So, it’s been a wild ride. Is there anything outside of, you mentioned compensation, but anything else on the corporate recruiting side when you do lose candidates that you’re trying to hire that you see kind of a common theme as to why you lose candidates during an interview process?
I think transparency is a big one. What was sold at the time of the offer? I try to always tell, you know, when I was recruiting or even just kind of in support of my team or the TA team that works with us, don’t set false expectations, tell that person coming in, if it’s going to be a stressful three weeks in onboarding, tell them that. Because we’ve all been there where someone’s like, “Oh my gosh, we’re such a team. Everyone’s here to support you.” And then you join the team and you’re like, no one’s here. No one’s here to help me. I have no guidance. So if that is the case, and you are a lone ranger or maybe your first three weeks of onboarding is going to look really, really aggressive and really robust.
Just set expectations early on. I feel like you’re going to have a better experience. We, and a lot of the companies I’ve worked with have had a lot of, we call them quick quits. People are starting and they don’t feel supported and they immediately turn around and they’re like, I don’t need this job.
And it’s kind of funny and I don’t know if you guys feel similarly, but COVID really shifted the infrastructure where people started to realize they can live with very little. And so I think I have seen an uptick just from an HR person. I’ve seen a massive uptick of people just leaving without a job because they know, you know what, I’m not going to deal with this crap.
Like I know that I can cut back a few expenses to find something else and just not work in the interim. So that is also changed because I think COVID really kind of changed the way people saw what they needed in life, I guess, if that makes any sense. Yeah.
Yeah. That’s been a huge topic for definitely a lot of the clients we work with. It’s tough to you know, gauge and anticipate exactly what is the best answer is case by case for sure. But, in regard to that, too, like, in HR, I’m sure there’s a lot of uncomfortable conversations that you probably have, but I’m sure you’ve had over your 13, 14 years, can you remember or recall one where you’ve had, you know, whether it’s performance related, whether it’s two employees getting into arguments where you’ve had a really uncomfortable conversation that didn’t necessarily end well, that that kind of sits in your mind?
Oh, of course. I don’t want to say like I’ve seen it all by any means, but I’ve definitely seen my fair share. I’ve worked in like, to your point, a number of different industries. I’ve worked in startups. I’ve worked in tech.
I’ve worked in very corporate environments and there’s a demographic that follows with each of those. I have a funny story that I will get through quickly, but when I was very young in my career, it was literally my second job ever in HR. We had a pretty large reduction in force.
And so I had gone on site and you know, we were meeting with employees and they were all in a room. We had brought them out of that room to, you know, obviously deliver the news. And my director at the time had asked me to go grab, let’s call her Sarah. And I had gone into the room where everyone was and grabbed her and brought her into, you know, the room to meet with our HR director.
And my HR director pulls me aside very politely. And she goes, why did you bring me Emily? And I was like, that’s not Emily. That’s Sarah. And she’s like, that’s not, you have the wrong person. So it was actually the worst thing to happen to my career because I literally was about to terminate the wrong employee.
But it also was a very good thing to have happened because I think in that moment, I felt like I was prepared. I made the assumption that I knew who everyone was. And I didn’t. So I think in hindsight, you know, that was a really, again, it wasn’t, I don’t want to say it was a great thing to have happen because I feel terrible for this poor employee years later who her life was just destroyed in a moment.
But at the same point in time, like I will never and have never gone into a situation where I’m not prepared. So I think that was a very good life lesson and professional lesson to learn. Sure. No. Yeah, that’s good story. It’s quite awkward bringing the wrong person in to, to fire them.
I felt so bad. I mean, could you imagine you walk into this room, you know where you’re going, and then someone’s like, “Oh, whoops. Sorry. Not You.” It was awful. It was so awful. I owe that person. I did apologize to her, but I still owe her an apology.
Imagine having to do that in a remote environment which, you know, I think leads to one of our next questions.
Yeah, just, I guess, keeping teams motivated in a remote environment. What advice do you have there? What have you seen work? What have you not seen work? Would love to hear more about your thoughts on that.
Yeah. And I was lucky before the pandemic, I did work- a lot of my team members actually were remote or were on site.
So I was lucky that wasn’t a shift in shock right off the bat because of the pandemic. But I really think, so there’s a couple of things, I mean, as elementary as this sounds, weekly one on ones. I mean, honestly, as silly as that sounds, meeting for one hour every week, I mean, it really, really strengthens that relationship and rapport that you have with that person.
And even if that one hour is not filled up with work, it becomes very natural for you to get to know each other. You have the time. You yourself as a manager have communicated that I care about you. I’ve dedicated this time for you. That’s huge. The other thing, and again, all these things are going to sound very, very silly, but have fun.
I mean, I’ve been very lucky. I’ve worked for some incredible leaders throughout my career, but one really stands out. I currently work for her now, and I just love her. I love her energy. She brings the team together. She allows us to have a good time. She can find the balance of we have a job to do.
We need to make sure it’s getting done. But we also have lives and we can also take time for ourselves. That balance is really great. And I think for a remote workforce, if you work for a leader where you feel like they have invested in you. I think that you don’t need to be there physically.
You know, you will feel that. So I think that’s a big part of it. And then I think as a manager too recognizing when it’s not the right team member, the remote you know, workforce or the remote employee isn’t going to necessarily be the best fit for your team is another thing that you have to realize.
I mean, I know for myself, I am not a micromanager. I’m not good at it. I can’t do it. So when I’m asked to do it, or when I have an employee who needs a lot of handholding. I know for myself that you will not be successful, partly because of me. I will not help you be successful because that is not natural for me to have to check in on everything you do.
So I would recognize very early on that person, the remote structure is probably not best for our working relationship. So I think knowing that as a leader too, is really important. Makes sense, yeah.
What about trends that you see over the next few years in HR? I mean, I’m sure you’ve kind of seen things change over a decade and a half that you’ve been in HR, like, what do you anticipate trends looking like over the next five, 10 years to come?
Yeah, I would probably say more like leadership or emphasis on leadership training. I think it’s going to be a really big one. I think that’s taken a backseat over the years just because it’s an investment. It costs money to invest in your people, unfortunately, but I think, and I’m sure we’ll talk a little bit more about this.
I can only imagine, but you know, AI and kind of like predictive analytics, I think that’s going to be a big area. And then I really think, you know, a lot of states, I’m going to call it are going to align with the California way. I hate to put it that way, but it’s just the truth. I think we’re seeing that, you know, states are becoming a lot more employee friendly and kind of following the guidelines that similar to California.
And that’s not a bad thing. It’s just going to be very eye opening and new to professionals entering the workforce where, you know, a lot of these states are going to follow suit and these policies are going to be very employee centric, if you will. So I just think getting adjusted to that will be tough for some.
Yeah. Sure. Well, when you hit the buzzword of everyone, AI, it’s talked about in all industries, but I guess more specifically for HR and recruiting, how do you see that impacting your skillset?
This is actually really funny. A few weeks back, I actually just out of sheer curiosity, I asked ChatGPT to write me a workplace violence prevention plan specific to healthcare.
I was just like, let’s just see what they spit out. Mind blown. I mean, it was actually very accurate. It was very well written. Scrubbed it and obviously changed a few things, but it was pretty incredible. So that is definitely going to be something in a tool that I absolutely think HR should leverage.
Why would we not? The only thing I will say though, and maybe this is just me sounding super HR-y, but the human component is missing from AI. That’s an argument that anyone could make, but, we’re thrown a lot, especially when we’re meeting with employees, going through investigations, having to decipher what’s true, what’s ethical, what’s not. And I don’t think-
Although AI I think can think logically, I don’t know that they can think critically, if that makes any sense. And so I think that, that component of HR is something that will still be needed for quite some time, I would imagine, to kind of be able to fulfill that human component that AI just don’t think is at a place where it can.
Yeah, 100%. I mean, even on the recruiting side, we’ve seen that, you know, it helps with job descriptions or with sourcing, but like having a conversation with a candidate to know if they’re going to take a job, like, that is a human interaction that needs to be done. Absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely. And I would not want to talk to a robot if I was in the midst of like applying for a job, you know what I mean? So, yeah, totally. There have been recruiting tools that have attempted to do that. It definitely I think can rule a lot of candidates out or shoo them away immediately, scare them away. Oh, totally. You know, talking to employees and diffusing a situation. I also think that’s a role of HR, we aren’t seen as mediators all the time, but I mean, sometimes we’re brought in because there is a situation that is very contentious and we’re brought in to kind of diffuse that situation and help the employee feel valued and this and that-
How is AI at this, at this juncture, I’m not saying down the road, that won’t be the case, but how at this juncture, is that going to happen? You know what I mean? Yeah. For sure. And a few more questions here. How do you manage the demand of the business requests and priorities of the employee population, right?
It’s like having a head of HR report into a chief financial officer, you’re dealing with people and finance, right? Or another example of that is like, I mean, with COVID, right? And the whole remote aspect of things, if the business changed their mind, coming back from COVID and they want people in five days a week.
And the employees are all saying, no, I don’t want to be here five days a week and lose a lot of people. And those are just two examples, but how do you manage that kind of back and forth with setting expectations and playing kind of the middle person between the business and the employees?
Do you know that is like the most popular interview question, I’m pretty sure, which is like, I feel like every interview I’ve ever done in my life is a question they ask me, which I think is funny. So I feel like I’m being interviewed for a minute there, Bill. No, so I mean, honestly, I think it’s a balancing act. I really do.
I know that’s an easy answer, but really, I think we have the best interest of the company, the best interest of the employees. And we have to consider both. I think we have to be an advocate for fair treatment, fair policies, you know, and their wellbeing, but at the same point in time, our allegiance and alliance is still to the business as well.
And we have to make decisions again that are ethical. But at the same point in time that they align with the vision and the mission of the company, and that can be hard to do. It’s knowing the people that you work with and trusting that your executive team trusts HR. They’re there to support HR and vice versa. I think it’s a balancing act in all honesty.
Makes sense. Yeah, that’s why HR plays an integral role, especially in those very tough, big decision factors that are important to employees for sure.
Yeah, absolutely. One last question here for you, Kailey. I guess when you are specifically hiring for your team and take out the actual skill set of the job, this candidate, they have that, what are some of like the non-technical kind of soft skills that you look for with candidates and that you think make people successful when working?
Yeah, that’s a great question. I mean, I think one, I would probably say are interpersonal skills. I really think that we need to be human. We need to be professional, but we also need to be human. I think that’s a really big part of it. And connectedness and relatability, I think really makes a strong HR professional.
Number two, I would probably say is just the ability to be objective and critical think. You know, you can’t always take things at face value or take an employee for what they’re saying or a leader for what they’re saying. I think you need to dig and I think you need to find the facts and make a rational and unbiased decision, which is not always easy.
And then I would say three, and that actually might be number one is emotional intelligence. You need to have a handle on your own emotions and be able to manage them and be able to communicate effectively and handle conflict and that’s very difficult. I will tell you, and this is kind of funny, but I’m a therapist, my background is therapy.
I mean, we’ll just, we’ll be a therapist. And when I first started in HR you know, I over empathize with people, you know, and I learned that very on in my career that again, you want to have empathy, you need to have empathy to do this job well and to be successful. But at the same point in time, you need to manage that also, because again, to your question earlier, Bill about the business, sometimes they will be at odds.
Your empathy for a situation may be at odds with what the right decision is to make. So I think being able to manage that is really important.
Yeah, that’s tough. Definitely for sure. Well, we’d like to wrap up with our unfiltered HR question segment which is where we ask our guests less formal or a little bit more uncomfortable of a question, even though several of these past questions were uncomfortable, but this one is going to be a little bit more.
So, at some point in your career, Hirewell, what was looking to hire, we, were looking to hire somebody in HR and our first HR leader to our organization. We thought you were an excellent fit for our culture. We ended up making you an offer. We’ve laughed about this over the years, of course, but I’ve never really asked you why you turned our offer down and moved your career in a different direction?
Nothing like going back down memory lane, Bill. That’s really funny. I remember this vividly, actually. Even after I came on-site and interviewed, there was like a happy hour. And so I got to like meet basically all the employees and we had some drinks. It was blast. Anyways, I just, I vividly remember that.
No, I had a great- I really did and I would unfiltered be very honest if there was something I needed to share that, you know, but I had a great experience throughout the interview process. I’ll be really honest. My decision to move forward elsewhere was at that time I was kind of being asked to lead right, be a leader of a function.
And I, in hindsight, I did not know enough to lead a function. I think I’ve gotten a lot more experience kind of since then. I feel very well equipped and I’m at a place in my life where I can do that. But back then, that thought was very daunting because there were a lot of facets in HR that I’d have to manage and kind of know how to be strategic and be a visionary and I was not ready for that. I think it was more or less a decision, a personal decision.
And it’s kind of funny because then the next role I took on was more of a total rewards, benefits role, which was the area that I felt like I needed a lot more under my belt. I’m very grateful for that because really I would have been asked to step into a job that again, I just, I didn’t think I was really ready for after kind of going through the interview process. And I was happy in the long run for my own personal growth, that I had a few more experiences underneath me to feel ready.
Well, we still feel rejected, but. I promise it was nothing personal. You know that. We’ve talked about it before. It’s water under the bridge. You never know. Maybe we’ll cross later on down the line. You got to trust your gut. We do not take it personal. Oh, I know. I know. You guys are awesome. We certainly appreciate you taking the time, Kailey.
This has been great. Yeah. Of course. Yeah, definitely appreciate you coming on, but that is all we have time for today. So thanks for tuning into this week’s episode. Today we met with Kailey Mack and we discussed her career, thoughts in HR and the talent market, what the future holds for HR, and even discussed some AI.
So we will be back again with you all next month with a new special guest. Quick reminder how you can support the Beyond the Offer podcast. You can find all of our content at the Hirewell social media platforms, which you can find at hirewell.com. So take care, everyone, and thanks for tuning in. Thanks, Kailey. Bye, everyone.
