From Reqs to Revenue with Penny Vamvakaris

[00:00:00] Hello, social media followers, LinkedIn, Facebook, and everyone tuning into our show. Welcome to Beyond the Offer Podcast. I’m your host, Rosanna Snediker, joined by my co-host and friend Bill Gates. Thank you for tuning in as we tackle the latest trends and challenges in talent acquisition and human resources.
Today we are sitting down with Penny Vamvakaris. Penny is a longtime client of Hirewell’s, who’s currently the head of talent acquisition for North America at Weber Shandwick, a global public relations firm. Penny has a very impressive background in talent acquisition with over 25 years of experience across consulting firms and agencies worldwide.
We’re very excited to have you join the podcast, Penny. Welcome to Beyond the Offer. Thanks, Susanna. Happy to be here. Thank you though. Yeah, we’re excited to have you. Well, first question, we always dive in with our guests. We’d love just to hear about your background and how you fell in or got into HR and the recruiting space.
Yeah, I mean, I never thought I wanted to, you know, growing up thinking I was going to be in hr, I focused my [00:01:00] undergrad in, psychology and specifically industrial organizational psychology. And then as I was graduating, had internships and, I was drawn to recruiting because it really, it fascinated me how much impact hiring decisions have on, the culture, long-term success of a company.
You know, as I got more exposure, revenue, and then early on, I realized that recruiting wasn’t just operational, it was, strategic, you know that right hire,changes a team. The wrong hire costs you clients, you know, momentum or, morale. So over time I moved from being a recruiter to build, building recruiting organizations for focusing on workforce planning, capability gaps, leadership hiring, building TA teams.
And you know, that’s what, really actually influenced the business is not just filling roles. And and what’s kept me in it for that, 20 plus years, is the work is constantly evolving, the markets change, skill sets change and shift. And you’re always balancing, you know, between the people and the performance.
[00:02:00] And that’s what, keeps you constantly learning, as well too. So my career, the first half of my career was in consulting, so Ernst & Young and McKinsey, I think a great, you know, foundational place to learn, high performance client driven environments. And then I transitioned into the media advertising communications space and agencies like Publicis and IPG, and then, you know, realized something.
Regardless of industry, I’ve always been in professional services. And professional services, you know, talent isn’t a support function. It is the product. We’re not manufacturing widgets. You’re building teams that drive creativity growth, client impact. And again, talent acquisition talent is really, I think at the forefront of that, it’s made it very interesting during my career to be in this area.
Absolutely. Yeah. No, great story. Well, Penny, we do appreciate you being on here. Excited to have you. We had mentioned your intro and you had mentioned just a second ago, you have been working within this media and communication [00:03:00] space which is definitely a very competitive, as you know, environment.
Yep. What’s kind of been your recruiting strategy to attract and retain the top talent within those organizations? Well, you know, in agencies, the competition for talent is, it’s pretty intense. So my approach has been, you know, if you wanna think of it’s simple, but really being disciplined, first really aligning, recruiting to business strategy.
Not just what are, what roles are open, but where is the revenue going, you know, what capabilities will we need 12 to 18 months from now? We will always be somewhat of a reactive mode. We may want a new client, you know, someone leaves, so there is always that just in time, you know, to fill a role, but it really is also aligning to the bigger picture.
And then, second, really be honest about the environment with candidates. You know, agency life is fast, it’s demanding. If you oversell culture and undersell expectations, I think we’ll lose people quickly. And I think, when I’ve seen that [00:04:00] happen, retention really starts with being clear, being clear about the role and being clear about, the environment and expectations.
Yeah. And then third, really invest in, what experience and what, you know, your structure and process is. Like having fast feedback loops, well-trained interviewers, competitive and transparent compensationwith candidates, thoughtful onboarding.
When the candidates feel respected, they’re more likely to stay too. And then, lastly, I think it’s also build the reputation, not just the pipeline. In the agency world, like I said, it’s always, it’s professional services. The word travels fast.
You know, the market knows which leaders develop talent and which ones burn people out. So you can’t hide behind that no matter what you do. Yeah. Do you see a lot of people in that industry because it is more of a kind of tight knit space, stay within the agency and professional services world and kind of move around.
I mean, like yourself, you’ve been in that space for over 20 years. Is that the same on the candidate side? Definitely, I think there are certain people who are kind of built to be [00:05:00] an agency. Yeah. In the agency world. And it’s interesting, I’ve seen, people who think, client side, you know, we hear the utopia, it’s a little slower, it’s a little more balanced.
But I’ve seen those people who have gone over to client side and a year later they’re wanting to come back into agency. So yeah, I definitely think it’s probably a different sort of, you know, person that is drawn to it. One thing I’ve noticed. Yeah. One thing I’ve noticed, what’s always I think, more unique than any other industry that we’ve worked with from a client side is how often, like, I think this may not be a general norm, but in order to get kind of increases in comp, you go from one agency to another.
Instead of waiting for your merit increases. And it’s also extremely unusual where you see, or at least I’ve seen with candidates tend to go from one agency then to another, and then a lot of times they’ll come back to that same agency as well. And then also vice versa. A lot of times clients might hire, you know, the person from that [00:06:00] agency as well.
So it’s definitely very interconnected. So reputation’s clearly important, but
Very much so. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, boomerang, myself included. I’ve done that as well too. So, you know, I think people also follow. People too. True. That’s true. That’s part of it as well. Yeah. How have you seen just the agency world change over the past 20 years?
I mean, with technology, with remote work? Like what are some of the trends that you’ve seen over the past few decades change that space? Yeah, it’s definitely changed. I would say, you know, significantly, like when I started roles were, I would say, even more generalists. Like you said, with technology, like you know, now we’re hiring for highly specialized skills with data analytics, performance media,
influencer strategy, you know, AI enabled planning. There are whole capabilities that didn’t even exist when I started in the agency world that, we have now we’re building around. And the work used to be very office centric. You know, almost sort of many agencies within [00:07:00] the agencies and building like that talent around that office.
But now the talent is definitely distributed and more selective and building on that, I think the candidates have changed too, like 20, you know, 15, 20 years ago, the brand prestige really carried more weight. And while that is important, certainly. You know, work and awards, but today people really want, flexibility, development, you know, transparency, leadership, they trust.
And I can see that more and more, a focus of candidates, when they’re asking what, when they’re letting us know what’s important to them. Yeah. Yeah. All good points. Yeah, and changing kind of gears a little bit more, so from the candidate’s perspective to the internal recruiting machine that you’ve typically handled, recruiting tools.
I, we’ve just seen a lot of, obviously AI tools that have surfaced new applicant tracking systems over the years. But have you seen or like used any new recruiting tools over the past few, you know, years that you’ve seen, I know there’s always [00:08:00] problems and a lot of the folks in the ATS world say there’s no deficiencies in ATSs and whatnot, but there’s no perfect one.
But have you seen some that are, you know, much better than others? And, if so, how have they helped? Yeah, I say the same thing. There’s no utopia for, in terms of ATS, but If I was to call one out, I would say, you know, Greenhouse has been the one that I have found has been, probably the best in terms of user experience, candidate experience, both on the candidate side and the recruiter side report.
Interestingly enough, was able to, get buy-in to implement a CRM. couple years ago, which was Gem. So we implemented that on top of our ATS. And that’s been a phenomenal tool. Again, both in terms of managing the candidate experience, but also recruiters too for us.
So those are some of the things, you know, tools that I have seen work, like as you said, Bill, of course, AI is the obvious headline. We’ve used AI sourcing and outreach automation platforms, just [00:09:00] looking at different things, but also looking at the different modules that things like Gem have LinkedIn, interview intelligence tools that analyze interview questions and bias.
Looking at meta view and things like that. And then talent analytic dashboards, and forecast capacity and hiring velocity. Again, GEM is really great with that in, their dashboards. I think what’s key is it’s not just adopting the tools, it’s using them to free the recruiters up for higher value work.
You know, some recruiters are a little more apt to adoption than others, but I think once you show the value, the automation can really help handle those repetitive tasks. So recruiters can focus on the stakeholder partnerships and the candidate experience, I think, which is really, which is key for us to continue to elevate the work that we’re doing.
Yeah, I agree. And that’s gonna look, I mean, more and more sophisticated year after year, even, you know, in six months, a year from now. Yeah. So, yeah, I think the mistakes, at least from my opinion, companies make, is kind of chasing that shiny tech [00:10:00] without chasing the behavior. But yeah, I think the technology should remove the fiction.
It shouldn’t replace, right, the judgment. And the real opportunity is using tech to free, recruiters up to influence, not just to transact. Yeah. ’cause you’re always gonna need that recruiter too influence and drive process.
Exactly. Like you said it’s such a people driven skillset. Yeah. And back to the ATSs, I feel like anytime we ask leaders, Greenhouse is always one of the top ones that comes up.
Interesting. Yeah. It really is. I’ve had, yeah, similar conversations. Yeah. Question for you on just kind of like interview assessments, personality assessments, you know, we have some clients that are really bought into those, some that don’t use them at all. We’re curious on your philosophy around that. Is it something that you find beneficial throughout the interview process and if you do any that you prefer that you’ve seen be more successful?
And if so, like for what type of roles do you implement those? I’ve used tools like Hogan and disc or like cognitive [00:11:00] assessments. I think they can, be used, selectively at times. I don’t worship them. I think, you know, more for leadership type roles. I don’t think I prefer one, and I think it depends on the role too, but that’s where I’ve seen them perhaps being used a little bit, providing more value. I think they can be useful for leadership development and team dynamics. Use them personally for that. Yeah. I also think they should not replace structured behavioral interviewing. And they definitely should not be the sole reason someone is hired or rejected. And I do, that’s, you know, one thing I have seen where people have hiring teams or decision makers have leaned a little too much on the assessments themselves, which
is why, you know, I think they’re okay, but like I said, I don’t worship them. So especially agencies, you know, we’re looking for cognitive agility, resilience, collaboration, and I don’t, I think no assessment perfectly predicts that. Whereas you have a strong interviewing, and calibration, you know, structure, I think that actually is a better predictor.
Yeah, [00:12:00] completely agree. I think we’ve worked with clients that are on both sides of the spectrum, some that live and die by ’em and other ones. My personal thoughts, I’d say Hogan is usually typically used for more executive and leadership hiring. Exactly. You know, TCATS who tend to be a little more cognitive like DISC,
a lot of folks, I think hiring a lot of sales individuals that have more of the behavioral side like to see that. But I think, you know, as you probably know when to introduce these, if you do have assessments is the most important factor, I think. Exactly. You start off with them without even talking to anybody from an organization.
It’s the biggest mistake you can make ’cause the drop off of candidate pool and candidate experience usually is, “oh, I’m interested in this job and you’re telling me to take an assessment.” “I have take a test.” Yeah. I couldn’t agree more. I couldn’t agree more. And I think also, as I said, I think then you are just solely reliant on that, where it should be a data point in the overall, you know, assessment process as [00:13:00] well too.
For sure. How do you stay up to date with just industry trends and being the best talent acquisition partner to the business as things change and evolve? I stay curious. Talking to other CHROs and talent leaders across the network, attending networking events, also following industry reporting, within, the ad world, you know, ad week, ad age.
I think staying close to the hiring managers, and the business itself, they tell you where scales are shifting too. And even talking to candidates, they’re often kind of ahead of the companies themselves. You know, just keeping abreast that way. What’s happening in the industry.
But I also believe in cross industry learning. You know, watching what tech, or consulting is doing. I often see, that hits and probably around, you know, what they’re doing today hits agencies maybe two years later. So, trying to understand what some companies are doing outside of the agency world, I think has been really [00:14:00] helpful.
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Just knowing what other industries are doing and like you said, talking to candidates, that’s what we tell our clients. Like hearing what candidates are hearing in the market, especially ones that are active ’cause they’re talking to other companies that are hiring. That’s like real time data for you.
100%. And then think the other thing is taking that market data and sharing it with, you know, our hiring managers and our leadership. While it may see anecdotal, that’s really. Where the value is, in terms of what are candidates saying, about us, our brand, or what they know about our clients, the work.
There’s a lot of insight in that as well too. Yeah, so thinking about just kind of the market, I mean, the three of us are no stranger to the ups and downs of the job market, especially in the recruiting space. I guess if you were talking to someone who is a recruiting leader and is kind of just dealing with the first time of the volatile market, that is what we’re in now, what advice would you give them on how to manage a recruiting team and just how to deal with the ups and downs of the [00:15:00] economy and scaling and managing a recruiting team in today’s world?
Yeah. Well, to your point, first I would say volatility is normal. You know, if you stay, like you said, if you stay in this field long enough, you’ll experience cycles, which, as you said, we all have. My advice is, don’t let the word hiring freezes
scare you. Build relationships even when you’re not hiring. This is the opportunity again, stay close to the business. Understand, what skills are needed? What clients are we pursuing? Continue to be connected and knowing that we’re going to need to build talent in that area.
So build those relationships with candidates even when you’re not hiring. And you do that by just having transparent conversation with candidates. You let them know there’s not a role right now, but you know, there could be one in the future. I just wanna start to get to know you. And then use those slow periods to
upgrade infrastructure, clean out your ATS. It’s sort of the housekeeping things that you just always have on a list of things to do and just aren’t able to do when you’re in the up, up cycle of [00:16:00] hiring. And I say, learn to speak in business terms and not just, you know, HR language.
Again, understand the business. And I really do think, the downturns kind of reveal the skill gaps, when hiring is, so-called, easy. What we would say, like, not the strongest recruiters can kind of hide too in the volume and in tougher markets, the rigor really matters.
So I think it’s important to keep yourself fresh and learning and connected too. Absolutely. Yeah. Good points. I find, you know, I know we’ve known you for quite, Hirewell has, Ro, and myself, have known you for a while, but I find what’s kind of interesting about your background is you came from the McKinsey of the world and you’ve worked with kind of big, and were you internal at McKinsey or external?
No, I led TA for a couple of different practices at McKinsey. Okay. But hiring for McKinsey internally. Hiring for McKinsey, yeah. Internally, consultants. Yeah. Well, you know, so you think of those folks that, that’s kind of your top of the bar individuals, from what, 03′ to 2010, but then, like you, and you’ve also worked with some [00:17:00] larger, you know, ad agencies and whatnot as well.
But then what’s fascinating, you’ve also worked with, kind of smaller, tech organizations that may not have had this massive brand or talent acquisition team, what have you kind of learned, not that bigger is better and smaller is better necessarily, but what have you kind of taken away from those experiences to put recruiting into perspective?
Yeah, it was actually a great experience and the reason I did that, it was something I’ve always wanted to do too. And we wanted to, you know, be exposed to a startup environment. And I say the experience sort of even recalibrated me, like you said, Bill, it’s smaller tech environment.
You feel every decision, there’s no bureaucracy to absorb mistakes. every hire effects the burn rate culture, even, execution of speed. So it really forces you to prioritize. And it forces clarity, it forces speed. So when I returned back into large organizations, actually went back [00:18:00] to Publicis, I brought that back, a basis really kind of for simplification, definitely scale is impressive, but
agility is powerful, you know? And then, sometimes, I found like stepping in that smaller environment reminds you, what actually drives value versus what’s just, if you wanna call it sort of process theater,
well that is definitely important and I think is key to having a functioning talent acquisition and something I brought there.
And I think that was what a value of my background. Those are some of the things that I took away from my time there. Absolutely. Do you feel like, in regard to just some of the smaller organizations as they’re building out like talent acquisition functions, I mean, I’m sure you’ve walked into it in all different shapes and forms to where there’s maybe bottlenecks or you know, maybe their employment branding isn’t up to speed or maybe they’ve missed, where do you feel like there’s a commonality and mistakes to where
as that process is building, from kind of the ground up that [00:19:00] there’s missteps? Like sometimes who’s involved in the, interview process. Yeah. And the process can be too long or too short and right, like.
Yes, absolutely .
There’s all different problems and issues, but
I think it’s having what that defined process is.
So while you know, you say there is a process, there’s nothing actually defined. So actually putting something down and saying, here’s how we’re going to do this. And again, nothing is black and white. There are shades of gray. We’re talking about people, but there needs to be something that’s defined and socialized.
And trained and definitely getting buy-in at the leadership level. and then ensuring that then is adopted throughout the entire organization. Because that’s where things can really start to snowball sometimes if the business is driving, what is happening, have come into places where a candidate has met with 15 people and we still haven’t, we are still not able to make a decision that is not necessarily even for, you know, the most senior person.
So, that I think, and [00:20:00] every organization has been unique, but I definitely think that’s probably, if I could sum it up, the driving sort of theme I’ve seen. Gotcha, gotcha. Makes sense. Yeah. Well said. And I feel like we see that so often with the smaller startup companies where even when we’re qualifying the job, like the interview process, it’s like changing on the fly.
And it changes throughout the process where the bigger companies typically have it ironed out pretty well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you know what you’re doing. Your candidates know what they’re doing. You know, expectations are set from the start. From the start. Yeah. Yeah.
Well, and for you, I mean, to have both of those experiences on your resume, I mean, a lot of people want that and they struggle to either be able to get into the small company when they have the big experience or vice versa. So it’s great that you have both of those experiences ’cause a lot of people want that and just can’t get it.
So great for you to be able to pull from both sides. Yeah, it was great. Yeah. So I know we’re already, you know. Already into Q1, which time is flying. But just curious, you know, looking into [00:21:00] 2026, what do you anticipate for recruiting? Any changes, any trends that you see for this year? Well, of course AI, you know, but I think AI becomes a little bit more embedded, not as experimental.
I think skill-based hiring becomes operational, not just aspirational. I think it’s something that at least I have seen we’ve been talking about for the past few years, and I really think it’s, there’s been more focus of it. I think internal mobility, certainly, you know, within large organizations, I think will, there’ll be a focus on that.
I think that becomes, even coming from a financial strategy too, redeploying and, keeping talent. And I think recruiters who can speak the language, I keep saying this, but recruiters who can’t speak the language of the business will struggle.
So again, really being, business partners. And the other thing, I think talent acquisition will be measured more rigorously, you know, and some [00:22:00] organizations, maybe do this a little bit more, but I do see this as, a theme, across most organizations now where, not just cost per hire, but quality of hire, retention curves.
I think the accountability bar is rising. And I think that’s a good thing. I think, like, as I keep saying, TA continues to evolve and really, I think it’s become even more strategic relevance, is continue to do that at this point. Yeah, I love all that. And I know you’ve said it multiple times, but being aligned with the business I think is so key.
I mean, you see it anytime, not that we’re going into a downturn, but when, you know, things do slow down, the recruiters that do stick around, that stand out are ones that do understand how TA aligns with the business. So yeah, you’re spot on there. Yeah. Well, we like to wrap it up with a few questions that are a little bit less recruiting, HR focused, just kind of to get to know our guests on a little bit more of a personal level.
So a few questions for you, Penny. Just curious, if you had a day completely off to yourself, no work obligations, just totally for [00:23:00] you, what would that perfect day look like? I think it’d be pretty simple, kind of unstructured. Probably workout in the morning, great cup of coffee. No email, just being disconnected.
Probably a long walk, with my dog. Maybe reading something like for entertainment, like non-business related, and then just dinner somewhere great, you know, Chicago’s amazing, great restaurants, so, you know, no agenda other than just kind of enjoying the moment. Like I said, just kind of simple and structured.
Sounds like a perfect kind of random day. Yeah, I love that. Any good restaurants that you are into right now or? Well, I’ve actually been to a few good ones over the past month or so, but the one that stands out, Petit Edith, new, French restaurant. As the friend that I went with said it was exceptional.
I’m like, yes, exceptional is the word. It was phenomenal. So highly I recommend it. Okay. Love [00:24:00] that. If you haven’t been yet. How about another last kind of question, more on the unfiltered side of things. Any tips for staying motivated? I know you mentioned a book, but a podcast. You know, anyone or just somebody you look up to, to kind of stay motivated on the career side of the equation?
Yeah. Yeah. I listened to, I like a lot of podcasts just with traveling. You know, I like doing that as well too. And I, most recently I came across one called, The Knowledge Project. And you know, it’s basically they interview different people across like business, science, investing and sort of understanding what like their mental models sort of decision making is.
So people like Mark Andreesen, Michael Orbit, you know, who started CAA. And then they also have like this outlier series where they highlight biographies of people like Charlie Munger, Mary Kay Ash, you know, like a Mary Kay [00:25:00] cosmetics. So it’s really, really interesting just to hear A, people’s perspective and then also their stories.
And what’s interesting too is like every single one of these people have had challenges and struggles and so, you know, just, all different, all unique and all the ways they’ve handled it, but also very, you know, successful people. So really interesting.I’ve just recently I’ve come across that one, but that one that came to mind.
Another one to recommend on the podcast front, before we wrap up here, but I came across one recently called Acquired. It’s been around for a long time. Acquired, yeah, Acquired, I’ve heard of it. Yeah. Yeah. so they follow like it’s a really like big deep dive into a company and how they got to be.
One I recently listened to, which is a bit older, I think it was in 2023, is, a dive into like Costco for example, and like how they came to be and the simplicity of their business and how they kept things the same for so much. It’s really interesting to see where and how these companies have evolved, but they’ve got.
Yeah.
[00:26:00] It’s a good one to listen to if there’s companies that
I’ll put it on my list.
You like to follow, I love to dive into like Wikipedia pages on some of those things and it’s, this is much more detailed and descriptive and it tells the story a little bit better than just a regular Wikipedia page. Yeah. Because you get a perspective too, so I’ll put it on the list. Thank you.
Absolutely. Absolutely. I’ve got one too. If you’ve, heard of the burnouts, it’s hosted actually by Bill Gates’s youngest daughter and her college roommate. They interview different like entrepreneurs. They had the woman who started Poppy, the soda company. She just sold to Pepsi, so that’s how I got on it.
But Bill Gates’s youngest daughter, who’s like in her early twenties and her college roommate, they interview all these people who start like different startups and it’s really interesting. So that’s a good one too. If you wanna check out one. I have not heard of that one. Yeah. But I know I’m like, I’m listening to a podcast of, you know, girls that are right outta college, younger than me, but they definitely have some really good guests on there.
Yeah. Yeah. And the poppy [00:27:00] story is crazy if you wanna Google a crazy story. I mean, she started that. I’m somewhat familiar with it, but I don’t know the details. Yeah. Started it like in her kitchen, I think nine months pregnant, went on Shark Tank and now sold for a billion to Pepsi. Right. Yeah.
It’s insane. So. That’s great. Well, that is all the time we have for today. Thanks for tuning in to this week’s episode.
Today we met with Penny Vamvakaris, and we discussed her career in the agency space. How the industry has evolved over the years and what direction we can see recruiting going in 2026.
We will be back next month with a new special guest. Quick reminder again on how you can support the Beyond the Offer podcast. You can find all our content on Hirewell social media platform, which you can find on Hirewell.com. Penny, thanks for joining us and take care everybody and thanks for tuning in.
Thank you. Thanks Penny. Thanks.