Creating 35,000 Hires in 8 Weeks: Lessons in Agility and Innovation

[00:00:00] Hello, social media followers, LinkedIn, Facebook, and everyone tuning into our show. Welcome to The Beyond the Offer podcast. I am your host, Bill Gates, joined by my co-host and friend, Rosanna Snediker. Thanks for tuning in as we tackle the latest trends and challenges in talent acquisition and human resources.

[00:00:19] Today we are sitting down with Eric Buntin. Eric has led talent acquisition in HR with impressive companies like. Bath and Bodyworks, Amazon and Randstad. He has helped these companies acquire and retain top talent and has strategically aligned with the talent market to transform recruiting departments.

[00:00:38] Eric, welcome to Beyond the Offer, and thanks for joining us. Well, thank you. Great to join you, Bill and Ro and looking forward to the conversation today. So are we. Absolutely. Yeah. And I know we’ve known obviously each other for, for a long time. We have. But, our first, you know, question we typically ask for all guests is, tell our listeners a little [00:01:00] bit about how you, got into recruiting, how’d your career get started

[00:01:04] in TA and HR and that type of thing. Well, like all of us. And being a big fan of your, podcast. That was not my choice. It fell into it like we all do. I actually, was going to attend law school and literally decided the day before class started to not go and then was talking to a friend of a friend whose mother worked at Randstad when it had just entered the US market in year one.

[00:01:34] I said, Hey, you know, I can do this and it’s a good combination of recruiting and sales, and I’m gonna find a job through working with these companies in sales or account management, and then well. There I am in recruiting and talent acquisition for over 15 years and never left it. And obviously, like you said, started in the agency world and then, moved into in-house corporate recruiting.

[00:01:59] [00:02:00] Absolutely. Yeah. Well, like, like most, I think most fall into it. But from a of legal and law firm and kind of lawyer perspective route, that’s, that definitely I feel like is a bit more unique of a story. That’s a, it’s a big fork in the road. I will say it has helped during, that’s interesting situations when, you’re talking to clients in the agency world or even hiring managers when there might be a landmine that you encounter where you sort of know in the back of your mind, what you should or should not do and how to approach things in a certain way.

[00:02:34] And Ialways have told my teams, what they tell you the first day in law school is never answer a question you haven’t been asked. That’s a good point. Yeah. Right. I like that. So, yeah. We’ll have to pass that one along. Yeah. Yeah, it helps things move faster as well. Yep. That’s for sure. Well, we talked about some of the big companies you worked at Amazon, you know, known for hiring very high bar data-driven [00:03:00] culture.

[00:03:00] What were some of the most effective hiring practices that you learned there? And can you share some of those with us? Yeah, absolutely Ro. I, you know, I think the, key to their approach is that it’s absolutely embedded in the culture. It’s part of who they are as an organization. It’s something Jeff Bezos started and really embedded in the company from the very beginning, and everyone is really expected to commit to being a leader in terms of talent acquisition and excellence in hiring and candidate assessment.

[00:03:35] Absolutely. Yeah, I’m sure it’s changed a lot of the, since the early days of Amazon obviously. But, it’s definitely a very data-driven organization for sure. Well, you know, two different, obviously companies in that sense, Bath and Body Works, Amazon, both of which of you’ve worked at.

[00:03:54] I assume, you know, bath and Bodyworks operated much more of a different kinda retail environment versus, of course [00:04:00] Amazon, which is a very complex business. But how did talent strategy shift when recruiting for a company, navigating transformation or financial headwinds? How did you handle that during your time?

[00:04:11] Yeah, I think, you know, Amazon really did rely on a very structured process. So we would walk in Bill, every year and every organization inside of Amazon would have their headcount plan for incremental hires every year at the beginning of the year. So it was very predictable, like you said, very scientific, very data-driven.

[00:04:31] And that approach really flowed through to role prioritization in terms of the business plan for the full year. And there was a commitment to that. So, a couple of the organizations I supported with hire over 800 to a thousand new associates a year across all roles and levels. But they had it really timed in terms of which role needed to be hired.

[00:04:54] At what point during the year based on business priority. And that really helped for workload planning and [00:05:00] requisition management from a TA perspective. Whereas with, you know, a traditional retailer. I joined Bath and Body Works in 2020, and we all know what happened that year. Oh yeah. So there was a big pivot, in terms of what we were doing, as we all sat at home and really had to readjust, what we were looking at from a store’s hiring perspective.

[00:05:21] And so there’s a lot more fluctuation you’ve got to adjust based on sales a bit more than an organization, maybe the size of Amazon. And so there were lots of trades and puts and so TA really, we had to be more nimble, and really have a team that was not as specialized maybe as they would’ve been at Amazon by type of role.

[00:05:41] So give you an example for most of the organizations in Amazon I supported, you definitely had a very dedicated tech team because of the complexity and the niche role, nature of a lot of those roles. and then even in non-tech specialists in sales and account management and go to market, I think, GTM, [00:06:00] which is very prevalent now, was not that well known, but you know, they really led an Amazon business with launching that and you really needed those dedicated team members.

[00:06:07] But at Bath and Body Works I had to have a team that could cross over between stores leadership into finance, into legal, into marketing and communications, especially based on the fact that COVID hit. Two, we became a standalone organization from L Brands, which dissolved. Yeah. That changed everything.

[00:06:26] And and a lot of people probably wouldn’t know, the IT function for L brands was shared, so we actually had to stand up our entire tech team from scratch, after the separation. So really that agility became really critically important. And like you said, the headwinds, the changes in retail made that a lot different and more nuanced than an Amazon.

[00:06:52] Do you find that a lot of, I mean, from an organizational perspective standpoint, both of those organizations are hiring, obviously a lot of, you know, [00:07:00] warehouse workers, retail employees, et cetera. is it more effective to have like a centralized recruiting function for a lot of those field employees versus having corporate

[00:07:11] manage the work or what’s kind of the best organizational setup typically for that type of hiring? Yeah, so we, you know, we really worked on changing that approach to your point around, high volume hiring for stores at Bath and Body Works. There was really no dedicated support structure in place.

[00:07:29] When I joined the organization, and we actually built out a playbook for our stores and centralized that to make it more efficient and effective and consistent. And then actually also developed a robust recruiting marketing program, with our good friends at Shaker Marketing, there in Chicago, to support us.

[00:07:48] And then what I think was probably the most inventive, but also productive change was that we took assistant store managers out for peak hiring and put them into a seasonal recruiter role. We [00:08:00] trained them on, that process. They stepped out of the business so the business could keep running.

[00:08:06] They were responsible for helping support 35,000 hires in eight weeks and supporting that recruiting marketing program. So it really was a win-win in terms of the business and also recruiting, standardization. But I think one of the greatest things was on average, 40% of those assistant managers got promoted to a new role within a year after being in it.

[00:08:27] So you’re really talking about internal mobility, employee development and recruiting optimization at the same time. Yeah. Absolutely. I’ve heard of other retailers like Target I know does that in some cases where they pull their managers out to help with recruiting and it just

[00:08:43] That’s right.

[00:08:43] It seems like a no brainer to get them involved, especially when they’re building out teams at multiple locations.

[00:08:49] That’s right. Yeah. But I think Bill, to your point, you know, stores especially, and even some functions. They’re not hiring that often. And I [00:09:00] think being able to come in with that rigor and that structure and sort of the science of TA is really important in those environments. And it’s also important if you’ve got the scale of hire we had at Amazon.

[00:09:10] I said, you know, when I think back to Amazon, what stands out to me, we talked about this in the first question you asked was what made it different? Well, there was the culture, but there was a science behind hiring and interviewing. Everyone had to complete a three hour interviewing skills course before they could conduct an interview.

[00:09:31] There was a platform that was used for capturing interview notes and a very structured process that presented all of those notes in a very scientific way to assess the candidate, and it was led by a unbiased interview facilitator for the debrief. That wasn’t even a part of that organization typically, so it was incredibly [00:10:00] rigorous and there was a commitment in really approaching it in a very scientific way.

[00:10:05] Yeah, I know we’ve worked with a lot of, recruiting, well companies that do a bunch of retail hiring and whatnot. I think obviously putting it more targeted within the stores is a smart idea versus, you know, more of a centralized function to where you’re supporting tons of different stores. But I’ve heard a lot of our clients that have done career days or some sort of, hiring programs to where,

[00:10:29] you know, they’re opening up like a new retail store and they’ve got X amount of job. Like, did you guys ever do anything kind of creative in, in that sense where there was a more of a volume hiring career day or versus, Hey, we’ve got five or six openings across manager to shift, you know, worker, et cetera?

[00:10:48] Absolutely. Did you? Absolutely, yeah. You know, when the, when the market really shifted, I would say 2022. Most significantly as we came post COVID and everyone was struggling to find [00:11:00] people in any role regardless of the role, right? We actually did,  stage our first ever national hiring event in stores and had an entire promotional campaign behind that.

[00:11:12] We had activation in the stores, to drive that, including referrals from existing associates. And two things. That first event we actually hired 15% of the total people we needed for the season on that one day. So that created a lot of synergy for the store to keep driving through from a business perspective.

[00:11:32] It also helped onboarding efficiency and effectiveness. But we also learned from that in a survey that the number one way that those associates actually learned about our seasonal roles was in the store. So it wasn’t through a social media campaign, it wasn’t through email campaigns or any other recruitment marketing.

[00:11:55] It was actually in store. So we really poured in lots of [00:12:00] assets and activities and activation inside our stores year round. That’s smart. You can get customers to work at your company. I mean, what’s a better play? Well, that, that’s, so the number one reason was, it’s a great part-time job. And number two was, I love to work where I shop.

[00:12:17] Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I would imagine referrals are pretty big, you know, hiring tool, I would imagine within a lot of those stores as well, people that work there, you know, enjoy working there would absolutely, certainly refer their friends or family, et cetera. I would imagine that’s pretty regularly, right?

[00:12:35] Yeah, without a doubt. And that was also really fundamental, I would say, both at Randstad and RPO engagement, same thing. That drove TA effectiveness for the team to not just be conducting outreach continuously for candidates, but really driving really strong referral programs in those RPO engagements. And Amazon had a really robust program, especially in tech.

[00:12:58] So I give you, [00:13:00] I’m not gonna give the exact numbers ’cause I don’t want to, hand that out, but, typically you would interview at least four to five times the number of software engineers that you needed to get one hire per month. So referrals were really critical to identify the talent that the current engineers knew were gonna be successful at Amazon.

[00:13:22] Interesting. Yeah. Wow, that makes sense. We’ll talk a bit about, Randstad. Let’s kind of transition more to the agency side. You know, we’ve talked about your corporate recruiting role, but you did spend six years on the agency side and more of an RPO role before moving to Amazon and leading TA. Just tell us about that transition.

[00:13:39] We see a lot of people do it, and what were some of the major differences between corporate recruiting and recruiting on the agency side? Sure. I, you know, I will say. Amazon values agency experience when they hire recruiters and recruiting managers in because of speed, but also because of [00:14:00] relationship management.

[00:14:01] That is a key part of success at Amazon, is managing relationships and understanding the different types of personalities that you’re gonna manage and deal with. And you certainly encounter that when you’re working with. 50, 60, 100 clients in an agency situation. Yep. I think the, probably the most challenging part of the transition was moving more deeply into workforce planning.

[00:14:29] So you certainly did it in an RPO engagement to some extent because you were more embedded in the organization. They had outsourced a portion or all of their recruiting to you as a partner, but you weren’t sitting in. Talent reviews and succession planning meetings and looking at internal mobility and understanding where the shifts are going to come, in an organization during the year or the following year, and how to develop talent pipelines.

[00:14:57] You know, agency is much more reactive unless you [00:15:00] understand, and they’ve got a great predictive model of how they’re hiring. I would say in the, you know, corporate recruiting, certainly both at Amazon and Bath and Bodyworks, it is more about inserting yourself and being a partner at the table on workforce planning to be effective.

[00:15:15] For sure, and for those that don’t know, listeners that don’t know, RPO, that stands for Recruitment Process Outsourcing. But do you want to describe a little bit about it? When like an RPO can actually technically become relevant for an organization? Yeah, sure. So I’ll give one example.

[00:15:31] There was a, manufacturing client, in Chicago. Yeah. That was looking at ways to reduce their costs, both in terms of HR headcount as well as recruiting budget costs. And we actually worked with them, conducted a pretty thorough needs analysis, over the course of almost four months, and proposed a solution where we actually

[00:15:58] provided [00:16:00] not only all of the hiring for that facility, but also all the HR management in terms of associate relations, performance management, workforce planning. So that’s probably like the most ex extreme example, bill from an RPO. But we also, I worked with the client also in Chicago, and they wanted to outsource their call center operations.

[00:16:20] That’s a really typical segment where customers look to outsource, because of, volume, the headaches of, the headaches and also not necessarily understanding. There can be some really great solutions you can bring in that environment. Assessments, I think assessments in a call center environment can save time and money.

[00:16:41] Not only for the agency, but also in retention and performance. And you can reduce the interview to hire ratio by probably 50%. Actually did that at Amazon. I took that agency experience and we had an acquisition at Amazon that included a really large call center. And they had no standardized [00:17:00] hiring practice.

[00:17:00] We implemented an assessment and we went from eight interviews to get one higher to a four to one. Wow. Cut it in half. Wow. That’s impressive. Yeah. Is it usually, like with that volume hiring assessments, is it, sometimes you can use video hiring, but are you using like cognitive or behavioral based in, assessments mostly?

[00:17:18] Yeah, it’s exactly right. I mean, I’ll throw it out there. We use the Hogan assessment. I mean, yeah, lots of organizations use that. It’s very predictive in terms of key behaviors and you can really tailor it and benchmark it against top performers and, it’s very cost effective and really predictive at the same time.

[00:17:34] For sure. Absolutely. Yeah. It’s always striking the balance between how much can you actually use it to where it’s actually gonna be able to, I mean, but if you’re gonna reduce the, you know, eight to eight, to one, to four, to one, obviously it’s very effective. Well moving on to another question regarding cultural fit, I mean cultural fit versus, like cultural add has definitely become a hot topic.

[00:17:54] In HRTA, not just recently, but over the years, how do you balance [00:18:00] hiring for the alignment with the company value while also bringing in diverse perspectives at the same time? Yeah, I think again, it’s gotta start at the top in terms of the culture and the commitment. So you’ve got to have senior leadership, especially at the CHRO and CEO level really who are going to.

[00:18:21] Really say that group think is not the way we’re going to approach, how we hire people. And when I say group think, I mean I want someone, when you conduct an in an intake or a kickoff meeting with the hiring manager, I want someone just like Bill to fill that role. Well, let’s talk a little bit more about what you’re really looking for in terms of competencies and skills, but also.

[00:18:44] What impact do you want them to have on the team and the organization? And then you can really, I think that’s where you can get at a values alignment, but also a value add where they do bring that different perspective and they can challenge it. And I think that’s where TA does have to stand [00:19:00] up, and challenge the group think and really present candidates who are gonna bring uniqueness in their experience.

[00:19:08]  Not only from a skill perspective, but their thought process. I would imagine then like, the Hogan or, you know, any of the other, DISC assessment, et cetera. Like, that can also, you know, provide better insight, not only of course for a hiring manager as the hiring process, you know, is occurring, but obviously you can look at the statistics of, Hey, who’s, who’s doing well here?

[00:19:32] Who’s not, that’s right. What’s assessments here? And figure out and determine like, is there kind of a model profile or. Are we all over the map in terms of how somebody can be successful in whatever role it is you’re recruiting on? Yeah, absolutely. I think that goes back to the more science you put into developing the skills of your leaders to interview in a consistent way so that you are assessing values but [00:20:00] also

[00:20:00] change and impact the organization in a different way, and then measuring it somehow and having data on the back end that you can refer back to just reinforces how you should approach it. Absolutely. Yeah. And I love the point you talked to about just like the retention data of some of those assessments too, of taking it kind of a step further, okay, great.

[00:20:20] Here’s the profile that fits the role, but who’s actually gonna stay in the position. That’s right. That’s right. Yeah. Okay. Well, let’s talk a little bit about employer branding. We know that’s just a huge role in attracting top talent. You worked at big companies where they’re well-known names that employer branding, you know, played into that.

[00:20:36] What were some of the tactics that you’ve used to shape and strengthen employer branding when you’re scaling? I, you know, it’s interesting, everyone assumes Amazon. Everyone knows who they are. Well, yeah we do. But when I started, I was supporting Amazon business, which everyone probably knows now, as the B2B arm, but then it was a startup and

[00:20:56] strangely enough, a lot of people, especially in [00:21:00] go to Market, GTM, were not familiar with that organization and we had to create the brand for that startup to attract people into a very non-traditional account management go to market organization and then, and also in Bath and Bodyworks. The very best way I think you can do that is associate spotlights, associate testimonials,

[00:21:25] associate videos, associate content because it’s authentic. They’re sharing their experience. They take you along the journey and you can paint a really strong picture to someone of A the job they’re going to be doing, but the type of people they’ll work with and the culture they’re going to be in. And I think that’s really the foundation of any really great employer branding campaign, whether it’s

[00:21:50] a marketing campaign and or content that you have on social media or your career site. Yeah, and I’ve seen that, you know, traditionally on LinkedIn [00:22:00] or on company websites, but now even like on TikTok and Instagram, you’ll see companies

[00:22:03] absolutely

[00:22:04] where they’ve got their employees showing you what a day in the life looks like.

[00:22:07] Follow me day in the life has timestamps around what a day looks like and you know, it’s definitely new and fresh, but that’s what people want to see. Yeah. You know Ro we actually used some of those really short videos that were 30 seconds and the recruiters would send them out in their LinkedIn messages to candidates.

[00:22:24] Yeah. Say, Hey, here’s a sneak peek into what it’s like to be a small, medium business advisor in Amazon business. Interesting. It was like, it was a great hook. Yeah. I bet your response rate was higher for that. Much higher. Much. Yeah. And I think that that’s, you know, I know we, we may talk a little bit about AI in the future, but the more

[00:22:46] TA relies on video and rich content versus copy. That’s where candidates are now. That’s where younger professionals are living. That’s how they’re used to making [00:23:00] buying decisions, and that is no different than choosing a job. Yeah. And it has to be authentic content too. That’s right. You think back when they would film these fancy advertisements and videos and now it’s like people really wanna just see you holding your phone That’s right.

[00:23:13] Face and you know, the camera showing you what the day in the life looks like. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of the research says the grittier, I hate to, but the grittier and the more real, the better ’cause it’s authentic and people buy into it and believe it because it is true. Yeah. Versus some sort of completely customized, you know, marketing, video that’s made that, may be a little bit, falsely advertised in terms of how the day is and the, the life of that job.

[00:23:36] But, well, you kinda read my mind, Eric, regarding AI, which is my next question. I know that’s a term everyone, you know, artificial intelligence or AI people love to throw out, and we’ve asked a lot of guests, about it and how it will impact HR recruiting. But you know, with the rapid rise in automation, AI within that HR tech space, how do you anticipate

[00:23:58] TA [00:24:00] evolving over the next three to five years. Do you find that some jobs will maybe be more obsolete? You know, where do you see that kind of impacting, roles and how, TA departments can be most effective? You know, I think like most other professions or business segments. Where you’ve got tasks that are repetitive or administrative, those can easily be managed by AI.

[00:24:26] But I think where companies need to look at very carefully when they make that decision to maybe make that something that’s managed by AI, like scheduling, candidate scheduling automatically comes to mind, right? We already have ATS systems and CRMs that can manage campaigns. Candidate engagement. But I think companies need to look at, if we move those people, what else could we do as a brand in redeploying that is a better strategic play?

[00:24:59] Because they [00:25:00] think sometimes people look at and it’s like, oh, well you’re recruiting when you get a requisition and you’re also pipelining and managing brand it. So those are all very different functions. And if you’re really gonna go deeply into building a brand and positioning yourself to create, and I don’t like the word talent pipeline, actually, I prefer Talent Network, where you’re really connected and engaged with those candidates.

[00:25:23] Redeploy and move some of those resources in terms of people into recruitment marketing and employer branding and workforce planning. And then even leverage AI there to help you with, where you don’t need to have the human touch and the judgment. And I think that’s gonna be the evolution of moving truly into talent advisement and making TA more connected to that whole ecosystem we talked about earlier with retention and performance and succession planning.

[00:25:55] Interesting. Do you anticipate, I mean, ever a time where, you know, [00:26:00] our jobs essentially become irrelevant because of AI and now hiring managers are using the tools that. We’re using, as, you know, a way of attack, attracting top talent? Or is that, well, hopefully for us it’s more than 10 years.

[00:26:17] Yeah. I, you know, here, here’s where I see the danger in that is that if you provide someone the tool, it’s only as good as the person who uses it. And if I’m a marketing director, I understand how I’m going to go to market for my customer, but I don’t understand how to interpret or drive or direct and manage AI with the nuances that are needed to be assessing talent and understanding candidate markets, which by the way, I think are gonna become even more dynamic and complex and fluid and are going to need someone to really navigate that.

[00:26:54] Inside an organization as a TA professional. So I think there’s always gonna be the need for someone to [00:27:00] own that, manage it, refine it, versus handing it over to a higher manager. I do think, and my good friend Glen Kathy, who’s a great expert in AI and has some great points of view, you know, I think that there is a way to add value, speed, and efficiency and high volume recruiting for AI.

[00:27:19] I do see that, but I think you’ve gotta be tread very carefully when you turn something over and you don’t have someone in that profession owning it. Makes sense? Yeah. Yeah. And it sounds like from what you’re saying, you know, it does give TA and recruiters an opportunity to kind of elevate their role while using AI for some of the tasks that we’ve all had to do, just because we haven’t had the technology there where it’s like, now you can truly be a partner to the business and get involved in some of those areas

[00:27:47] ’cause you aren’t doing some of that day-to-day

[00:27:48] that’s right

[00:27:49] work. Yeah. I will tell you, I mean, so here’s an example to your point, Ro, when we, the third year when we launched that assistant store manager seasonal recruiter role, we also implemented an [00:28:00] AI candidate communication platform for stores as well, and high volume recruiting.

[00:28:05] And so instead of those recruiters and or store leaders having to spend, or like a recruiter, spending all of that time reaching out, having a conversation, scheduling an interview, reminding them of the interview, telling them what they need to prepare for the interview. Sending the offer that was all managed through texting and AI and chatbots that engaged with a candidate that sat on top of the ATS. So that’s a great example of where you can really leverage it the right way. Then you’re actually spending time with the candidate, having a conversation, engaging them, making a, probably a better selection in most cases. And let’s be frank, that’s how you schedule a doctor’s appointment. That’s how you schedule

[00:28:50] car repair. That’s gotta be embraced by talent acquisition. Yeah. Just simply that’s how people want to behave and we have to do it. Yeah. Order your groceries that [00:29:00] way. Everything. That’s right. Your delivery. Yeah. It’s so true. Messaging though. I still don’t feel has necessarily been mastered yet.

[00:29:06] Honestly. I mean, I still think that there’s, I think a lot of candidates can sniff out when, you know, AI’s been like, if you’re using LinkedIn, right. LinkedIn recruiter and whatnot, and sending out messages. I think personalization, is that what you’re talking about Bill? The like initial outreach versus like the coordination can be taken off, but.

[00:29:25] Like a lot of the AI, well, with the tools, some of the tools we use can seem, a little generic.

[00:29:31] You can even throw in the personalization of where they’re working and their name and you know, a little bit of that. But like, I do think there’s an element of, you know, same reason the agencies specialize in certain areas. We obviously, HR or, recruiting, finance, accounting, whatever, like if, for example, let’s just say you’re targeting

[00:29:51] a financial person and the hiring manager asks you, Hey, we want a big four person, which are usually very difficult to find [00:30:00] or, or get ahold of. Sure. They are. The AI bots in a lot of ways, thank God, haven’t necessarily, I don’t think, mastered a way to connect them. Right. What’s the hook with this role?

[00:30:11] What’s gonna be an interesting factor? Is it work-life balance coming from one of the big four, two, whatever companies you’re working with or trying to attract them to? I think that that is definitely an area that, the scheduling thing for sure. Right. I mean, you can automate that no problem, but the messaging, what is it to get them actually on the hook?

[00:30:30] Because a lot of the times you’re targeting passive candidates for some of the searches. I’m sure that. You or your team is working on and absolutely they’re not actively looking and what’s gonna be the hook to get them on the phone, versus, you know, a lot of those store level roles, like it’s a bit more of a volume play.

[00:30:46] You can get them on the horn. It’s once you get ’em on the horn, how do you kind of, you know.

[00:30:52] Where’s the human connection come in and when does it matter? I think that’s exactly, that really makes me think of that point of, you know what we’re [00:31:00] probably not doing enough of in TA is actually talking to candidates or associates we’ve hired to say when would it be okay?

[00:31:11] And what was okay during your process for AI to be managing this? And where do you want to be engaging with someone or knowing that you’re engaging with someone that’s a human being, like, you know, really good marketers, do customer research. We need to do a lot more candidate research. I think now that you’re saying it in the AI space to understand how to leverage it the right way.

[00:31:33] A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. Good point. But it’s a different you know, passive recruiting, executive hiring, versus-

[00:31:40] They’re all different.

[00:31:41] Yeah. And it’s all gonna have different strategy. That’s right. Yes. Yeah. Well, we’d love for you to talk about kind of a personal hiring initiative that you maybe took on that didn’t work out or, you know, I don’t wanna say failed, but maybe didn’t go in the direction that you thought.

[00:31:55] Yeah. And what you learned from it moving forward. That, yeah, that would [00:32:00] be great. We’ve all had them, obviously. Yep. We have, and it was actually my first step into the RPO world before we were really even talking about it in the. Recruiting agency space. But we had a customer that we were doing a little bit of work with, they were a retailer in the Midwest, and they really wanted support for product delivery.

[00:32:24] And I thought, well, this sounds great. Let’s start talking about it more. And I thought, by using a very limited technology platform at the time, and not understanding, to your point, the difficulties of interacting with human beings on varying shifts every single hour of the day, every weekend, Friday through Sunday, that we could manage it and outsource the entire delivery system for that retailer.

[00:32:51] That did not work. That was a really bad idea. I did not really grasp how much variability there was, [00:33:00] how much schedules were gonna change depending upon the customer, and that we just didn’t have the technology at that point to manage it. Nor do I, I think we ever had. So I always start now if I am talking about, or I talked about another RPO engagement after that, or even with hiring managers and senior leaders now scoping out a project to really understand first,

[00:33:24] what is this team or this individual going to do that impacts the business? And then let the process fit that next. Like, first strategy, then process. Not, here’s the process and here’s how I’m going to solve it. That’s not the right approach. And I learned that the hard way. It was, it was very painful, unfortunately.

[00:33:47] For sure. Yeah, those are tough. I mean, those are tough to navigate, right? Good learning situations, and I think so much of talent acquisition is. Macro, micro, big picture, small picture. How do you-

[00:33:57] Toggle back and forth all the time.

[00:33:59] Exactly. [00:34:00] Yeah. And the ones that are really effective, I think, know how to manage that.

[00:34:03] You know, I think a lot of recruiters tend to dive into the job right away. And it’s like, what? Well, can you tell me a bit about the company a little bit more? Right, that’s right. Why the job’s open. Let’s talk about the business reason behind it.

[00:34:18] Well, you know, final question, for, a lot of TA listeners, that listen in here. I mean, what advice would you give them for, you know, building a resilient future ready recruiting team? You know, especially today in a bit of a volatile job market. I think the first and the most important quality that anybody in TA and especially a recruiter is going to need is to be a student.

[00:34:43] They have got to be a lifelong learner, especially as we move in and things change on a daily, sometimes an hourly basis with what’s going on in the market or technology. So they’ve gotta take that approach to being super curious all the time. And I think secondly, they’ve got to [00:35:00] not lean, we talked about AI, don’t lean into technology so much that you don’t understand how to have empathy and connection

[00:35:09] with your candidate and with your hiring manager and your team, because that really is what builds sustainability on a team. And that’s hard to couple with technical aptitude, but I think those things will allow you to navigate through all the change, and that’s what you’ve gotta look at. Absolutely.

[00:35:31] Yeah. No good piece of advice for sure. Well, we’d like to wrap up how we wrap up here, with the more of an unfiltered, you know, kinda random, question segment here where we ask, our guests a little bit, something less formal. But, you talked a little bit early on, Eric, about, you know, being a lawyer.

[00:35:50] yeah, But if you weren’t in talent or talent acquisition or HR, what do you think you would be doing right now? I would [00:36:00] actually either be a writer,

[00:36:02] Okay.

[00:36:03] fiction. and I can say that because my nephew is actually getting his PhD in comparative literature, and he’s a published author at this point, which I’m super proud of, but I’m like, I would’ve done that.

[00:36:14] Like, I get into it, like I get all of his work before he publishes it and I’m like, man, I would’ve gotten into that. Or I would’ve, probably stayed in the talent space and, been in talent consulting more around the entire ecosystem of that, looking at it, but yeah. Yeah, basically attracting and keeping ’em from a retention perspective standpoint.

[00:36:36] Yeah. Yeah. But I’ll go back writing. I saw, an interview with Ann Tyler who wrote the Accidental Tourist and she’s 85 and she just published her 23rd novel and they were asking her about how she thought about the work, and she’s like, you know, I’m really kind of nosy and I like to listen in on conversations and they give me ideas for characters.

[00:36:59] And I [00:37:00] don’t write about presidents or CEOs. I write about plumbers and male people and clerks at a store, and that gives me an insight into a life I never lived. And that’s why I would’ve done it. Because that’s kinda like agency work and recruiting work. Like you get to kind of peek into things that you really don’t get to do all day long, but you get a little picture of it.

[00:37:24] Yeah, I was gonna say, those are some transferable skill sets for a good recruiter too, right? Yeah. Especially if you’re a good writer. Are you a big reader then too? I am, yeah, I am. You know, it’s not too late, Eric. You can still, potentially write a book about, you know, recruiting life and, you know, all the stories that we deal with day in, day out of.

[00:37:42] I just, I have to hide the names to protect the, guilty, right? Yeah, yeah. Including myself.

[00:37:52] But the last, yeah. Last, unfiltered random question here. What’s like a surprising skill or hobby, you know, that [00:38:00] some people wouldn’t expect from you? Ooh. Skill or hobby? I gotta think about that one for a second. So actually I’ll say it’s kind of a skill. I was really lucky.

[00:38:13] I can actually pick up and when I’m traveling abroad, I can actually take on and learn enough that I sound and have an accent like the country I’m in. Oh wow. That is impressive. So I can kind of pass really well and get by. I actually had, it was one of my first times in Paris and was talking to a waiter and he asked me if I was Parisian.

[00:38:38] I’m like, and I said, no in French. He was like, well, I would never have known. Wow. And I just, wow. That’s a compliment. I have an ear. I just, I happen to have an ear where I can like do that. I think you know what, it’s helped. Bill, you mentioned how much I moved. I think I’ve lived in every part of the country.

[00:38:53] That kind of helps because I can sort of like take on and become and connect with people in lots [00:39:00] of different cultures and environments and. It’s fun. So can you give us like, you know, Boston accent versus a, Boston Alien accent?

[00:39:12] I like that. How about also, or in Chicago? If you’re talking about .com, it’s .com, .com, .com, yeah. Yeah. The long A’s for sure. I always find it hard to distinguish between, you know, a UK British type individual versus an Australian, which they, I bet you, you know, if you’re either. Have an accent from either, you’re either from either country that you can easily pick it up.

[00:39:36] You know what I think is, what I found was weird when I was, I actually got to be in Spain a lot for Randstad and I can speak Spanish Kakalon. I, I don’t even try. It’s like, it’s like this combination of French and Spanish that makes no sense whatsoever. Yeah. But Spanish people and Portuguese people and Italian people can all speak to each other in their own [00:40:00] language and they understand it.

[00:40:01] I’m like, I don’t get this. Like I had a colleague from Italy and we were out in Barcelona and she just started speaking in Italian and the person in Barcel, they just back and forth. I’m like, I don’t get it. Yeah. I do not understand. Do you know multiple languages? Once I’m in France and I’m there long enough, I can pretty much,

[00:40:21] interact in French, if I’ve been there three or four days, enough. I had five years of Spanish in high school and so once I’m really immersed in that, I can get back to it again. Italian is basically close enough to Spanish that you can read it and having worked for a Dutch company, I know enough words, but I can actually read Dutch ’cause it’s so close to English

[00:40:43] once you really look at it, that you can understand it. Wow. That is, wow, that’s impressive. That’s a hidden talent, that’s for sure. Oh God. I took, French for a heck of a lot longer than that. And, I’ve been to Paris multiple times and I [00:41:00] certainly am not speaking French to many people, that’s for sure.

[00:41:03] Of all the ones I’ve looked at or tried to, it’s the hardest one. Yeah. Yeah. It’s without a doubt for sure. That’s fun. That is not one we’ve heard before, so thanks for sharing that. Yeah, sure. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, that is all we have time for today, so thank you for tuning into this week’s episode.

[00:41:21] Today we met with Eric and discussed talent acquisition, the difference between corporate TA and agency recruiting, employment branding, and the future of AI and TA. We will be back again next month with a new special guest. Quick reminder again of how you can support the Beyond the Offer podcast.

[00:41:37] You can find all of our content on the Hirewell Social media platform, which you can find through Hirewell.com. Take care everyone, and thanks for tuning in. Thanks, Eric for joining us. Thank you both, it was great.